D. lobata females and their will to protect their young.
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Here's a short clip of a D. lobata female, though in my experience they do still catch prey when they are guarding, this particular one may have decided to flick it away simply because the locust got too close to the ootheca. It's an observation, I know it's not tested. Notice that she's crouched over the ootheca before the locust is even put on the branch. Damian never prodded her in the video, but when I did, my females would just hug their ootheca even tighter instead of walking away like usual.
And I know skepticism is good, I just don't like having every single observation written off to anthropomorphism. The idea that bugs don't just pop out offspring and leave them does sound super ridiculous, but sometimes you need to be open-minded to discover new things as opposed to implying causation (small container/no room) to the action. The scientific method of approaching this would be to write up a thesis and test it, as opposed to just saying "just because it hasn't been scientifically proven before means it's doubtful that it ever will". That being said it might really be a nice study for someone who can do it, I wish I could do it from home but the lack of space and chances that it will just get written off as a "biased hobbyist" are quite unappealing imo.
And I know skepticism is good, I just don't like having every single observation written off to anthropomorphism. The idea that bugs don't just pop out offspring and leave them does sound super ridiculous, but sometimes you need to be open-minded to discover new things as opposed to implying causation (small container/no room) to the action. The scientific method of approaching this would be to write up a thesis and test it, as opposed to just saying "just because it hasn't been scientifically proven before means it's doubtful that it ever will". That being said it might really be a nice study for someone who can do it, I wish I could do it from home but the lack of space and chances that it will just get written off as a "biased hobbyist" are quite unappealing imo.
Assuming this is directed towards me. I don't think you understand what I was trying to say. The most simple explanation must be taken into account first. Insects providing parental care doesn't sound ridiculous at all, in fact in some orders it is the norm. All I was trying to say was that parental care in mantids appears to be little studied. No where did I say it won't be done or couldn't be done. I believe I mentioned there was definitely some opportunity there. I wasn't trying to imply that it couldn't be taking place but that evidence for it is lacking which doesn't mean I am just closing off my mind and chalking it all up to people seeing what they want to see. It is not that I don't think the observations are credible but that we just shouldn't jump to conclusions without first considering the most simple explanation first (Occam's razor). I think these observations are fantastic and interesting but I apply a dose of skepticism as all scientists should with these things. :stuart:
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Heterochaeta will also guard her ooth until it dries, i witnessed this every single time they laid. I put it together in my head that they must be guarding it because its soft still and vunerable. After two days of literally having one foot on the ooth she'll move, and by that time the ooth had a deeper color and harder look as well.
Sorry, it was only partially directed towards you. The post was meant to be a story which I personally found pretty touching, and maybe in the process of telling it I did tell it a little too dramatically. But I was mainly directing my comments towards the thought that the entire idea is ridiculous. Many years ago, the thought that the earth was round was ridiculous, and oh hey.. now everyone would think a "flat" earth was ridiculous. I do understand what you're saying, and I agree with you that research on mantis behavior in general is not very well studied/known. You should just have some faith in me that I didn't jump to the conclusion on this one case, from the one picture because prior to this female, my females were kept in 20g tanks with plenty of space to move away if they wanted to. Another question I'm kind of curious on is whether or not D. lobata females can recognize the ootheca they laid or if they would guard another female's ootheca if you swapped them.
Insects are insects to me, I enjoy them but don't get me wrong I will never think that they feel the way humans do. So this observation came from consistently seeing the same behavior with this species and I would like to believe that it is non-biased. Just for the sake of it, I did leave the female in with one of her ootheca until it hatched. I thought it was rather strange one day when I noticed her not guarding it anymore and it turns out that the little ones hatched. She did know they were there, she would look at the them the way a mantis looks as if she saw prey, but she never struck. Yes it's possible that she only moved because she was getting annoyed by all the little guys running around, but at the same time I saw little guys run all over her and the only time she would flick them off was when they got on her head/raptorials.
Hey everyone should take a look of this literature:
Ene, J. C. "The distribution and post-embryonic development of Tarachodes afzelii (Stål),(Mantodea: Eremiaphilidae)." Journal of Natural History 7.80 (1964): 493-511.
Ootheca guard and gregarious association between hatchlings and females were observed, which the author described as "unusual behavior among mantids".
Now what we can do is to test is if ootheca guard is more common than we thought among Mantodea in a scientific way :clap:
Here's another literature suggesting the existence of parental care among mantis; keep an eye on your female Hierodula membranacea next time!
Balakrishnan, Peroth. "AMBUSH AND OVIPOSITION SITE SELECTION BY GIANT ASIAN MANTIS Hierodula membranacea Burmeister (MANTODEA: MANTIDAE) IN TROPICAL WET EVERGREEN FORESTS, WESTERN GHATS, INDIA." (2012).
Ene, J. C. "The distribution and post-embryonic development of Tarachodes afzelii (Stål),(Mantodea: Eremiaphilidae)." Journal of Natural History 7.80 (1964): 493-511.
Ootheca guard and gregarious association between hatchlings and females were observed, which the author described as "unusual behavior among mantids".
Now what we can do is to test is if ootheca guard is more common than we thought among Mantodea in a scientific way :clap:
Here's another literature suggesting the existence of parental care among mantis; keep an eye on your female Hierodula membranacea next time!
Balakrishnan, Peroth. "AMBUSH AND OVIPOSITION SITE SELECTION BY GIANT ASIAN MANTIS Hierodula membranacea Burmeister (MANTODEA: MANTIDAE) IN TROPICAL WET EVERGREEN FORESTS, WESTERN GHATS, INDIA." (2012).
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You seem to have a better grasp on it than many others who immediately jump what is likely the wrong conclusion. I think the ootheca swap is a great idea actually.
Look at that, more evidence. Can't access that first paper anywhere unfortunately.
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I've noticed a few times were mantids were seemingly protecting the oothecae.
One for me was when my Tenodera angustipennis was directly on top of the ootheca. She was usually on the other side of the container, because that's where the heat lamp was, and she always wanted to be close to it. But there she was in the shade instead, on top of her ootheca. That seemed interesting to me.
And another instance, which wasn't an experience of my own, but my friend's. His Tenodera sinensis laid an ootheca and he let a cricket loose just after. He said, she'd usually run for it. Has even jumped for prey, she's become very aggressive toward prey. But when he released that cricket, she waited for the cricket to pass by her instead, and wouldn't move from the ootheca.
I do think that some may protect their oothecae, to ensure that they're not destroyed by parasites. Cause that female will certainly eat any that come along... I think it'd make sense scientifically that a mantid would protect their ooth, at least for a while. Especially if it'd just recently been laid. Some may wait just til it hardens up, some may wait a few days. Guess it depends on the individual.
One for me was when my Tenodera angustipennis was directly on top of the ootheca. She was usually on the other side of the container, because that's where the heat lamp was, and she always wanted to be close to it. But there she was in the shade instead, on top of her ootheca. That seemed interesting to me.
And another instance, which wasn't an experience of my own, but my friend's. His Tenodera sinensis laid an ootheca and he let a cricket loose just after. He said, she'd usually run for it. Has even jumped for prey, she's become very aggressive toward prey. But when he released that cricket, she waited for the cricket to pass by her instead, and wouldn't move from the ootheca.
I do think that some may protect their oothecae, to ensure that they're not destroyed by parasites. Cause that female will certainly eat any that come along... I think it'd make sense scientifically that a mantid would protect their ooth, at least for a while. Especially if it'd just recently been laid. Some may wait just til it hardens up, some may wait a few days. Guess it depends on the individual.
My Deroplatys lobata female showed a major interest in her ootheca after it was laid. I made a video. I got the feeling that she knew what it was, and knew it was hers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6IE6hSWKmM
Once I put it up in her cage, she guarded her ootheca often. She'd stare at it, and one time when I took her out and put her back in, I was able to watch her slowly make her way all the way to the ooth and hover above it, with one foot resting on it. I took a photo.
I later put nymphs on her to see if she'd eat them and she didn't. They were crawling all over her, even on her claws. She flinched a bit, tickled I think, but she didn't show any interest in eating them. I did 3 at a time. I'd like to try putting her back in her cage with the nymphs in there and see what she does.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6IE6hSWKmM
Once I put it up in her cage, she guarded her ootheca often. She'd stare at it, and one time when I took her out and put her back in, I was able to watch her slowly make her way all the way to the ooth and hover above it, with one foot resting on it. I took a photo.
I later put nymphs on her to see if she'd eat them and she didn't. They were crawling all over her, even on her claws. She flinched a bit, tickled I think, but she didn't show any interest in eating them. I did 3 at a time. I'd like to try putting her back in her cage with the nymphs in there and see what she does.
Right? adorable. Ive done this same with with Tenodera mothers, and did not have the same result, to put it simply!!
LOL!Note to self... Don't give Tenodera mothers bonding time with their nymphs!
but really... it is awesome!
It really is!
mantiseater
Well-known member
mantises don't feel anything. they don't care for their ooths it is just instinct.
If you think about the word "care", that is exactly what they are doing. They are caring for it. Protecting it. Even if its instinctual. Basically everything is instinctual, anyways, even with humans. It doesnt make what we, or other animals, do any less meaningful. Mantids do feel some things. Pain. Fear. Hunger. Comfort.
When losing a limb, a mantid will constantly clean it. It felt that and it wasnt comfortable. Its tending to the wound due to the discomfort.
When an unexpected predator shows up, they become defensive and pose. They're afraid of being eaten.
When the sun is shining bright, they make sure they are right under it, because the warmth is comfortable.
It's all instinct but all still based on what the mantid feels.
Ralphys_Mantids
Well-known member
mantiseater
Well-known member
not really what I meant but they dont have feelings like love, happiness etc. Emotions is probably a better word for what I was trying to say
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mantiseater
Well-known member
(Copied from Wiki) Though it has been argued that most invertebrates do not feel pain,[21][22][23] there is some evidence that invertebrates, especially the decapod crustaceans (e.g. crabs and lobsters) and cephalopods (e.g. octopuses), exhibit behavioural and physiological reactions indicating they may have the capacity for this experience.[5][6][24]Nociceptors have been found in nematodes, annelids and molluscs.[25] Most insects do not possess nociceptors,[26][27][28] one known exception being the fruit fly.[29] In vertebrates, endogenous opioids are neurochemicals that moderate pain by interacting with opiate receptors. Opioid peptides and opiate receptors occur naturally in nematodes,[30][31] molluscs,[32][33] insects[34][35] and crustaceans.[36][37] The presence of opioids in crustaceans has been interpreted as an indication that lobsters may be able to experience pain,[38] although it has been claimed "at present no certain conclusion can be drawn".[38]
One suggested reason for rejecting a pain experience in invertebrates is that invertebrate brains are too small. However, brain size does not necessarily equate to complexity of function.[39] Moreover, weight for body-weight, the cephalopod brain is in the same size bracket as the vertebrate brain, smaller than that of birds and mammals, but as big as or bigger than most fish brains.[40][41]
One suggested reason for rejecting a pain experience in invertebrates is that invertebrate brains are too small. However, brain size does not necessarily equate to complexity of function.[39] Moreover, weight for body-weight, the cephalopod brain is in the same size bracket as the vertebrate brain, smaller than that of birds and mammals, but as big as or bigger than most fish brains.[40][41]
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