Straight from the horses mouth

Here is what I would consider the answer to what many of us want to know. I found a contact from the USDA and asked him if it would be possible for me to bring non native mantids for my table at Bugfest. I found I would have to have a permit to do this. I hope this can help some of you. Here is his response to my email:

Hi Rick,

Only Native and fully naturalized (i.e. Tenodera aridifolia) mantids can be

held without a permit. Mantids that are non-native or not fully

naturalized in the environment require a USDA 526 permit to possess. The

large variety of mantid species that are available via internet trade are

nearly all illegal. We (APHIS) are not able to police the industry to the

extent that we would like.

We could consider a permit application for exotic mantids but you would

need to identify your sources. Generally we limit availability to

institutional situations such as zoos and museums and rarely issue permits

for private residences. Permits take 6+ weeks to get, so it is too late

for this BugFest.

Here is the application if you want to pursue it.

(See attached file: 526PermitApplication.pdf)

Hope to meet you in a couple of weeks. Do you know where you will be

locate at BugFest?

Below is his reply to my reply to the above:

Rick,

I understand your frustration. We must make our regulatory decisions with

locations such as south Florida and southern California in mind. The

concerns over mantids come from the fact that they are generalist

predators.

Good to know. For now, I expect APHIS is pretty darned busy in this area with their regulatory schedules against mediterranean fruit fly, oriental fruit fly, mexican fruit fly, japanese bark beetle and other serious pests to really have mantids in their sights.

Thanks, Rick. I've always said that those permits, like import/export permits are not designd for the hobbyist.

I don't think, Arkanis, that the feds are particularly frantic over the invasive insects that you mention, though I can only speak for the Mexican and mediterranean (considered to be low threat) fruit flies. Down here on the border, citrus trees and others, about 1/2 mile apart, have insect traps attached to them and a sign off sheet which shows that an inspector visits once a month. If any evidence of the pests is found, they usually go straight away to the "preferred protocol." Years ago, the feds used baited tarter emetic as an insecticide, but as soon as Malathion was introduced in 1956, they changed to that and have been using it ever since, despite the fact that a majority, perhaps, of gardeners, and many agribusinesses both here and in the UK have converted to pyethroids, as Chun points out in another thread.

Hello All,

Hey Rick, did you correspond with Dr W Wehling???

It is the same information I got in Arizona at a conference where he was one of the presenters.

He gave us a good presentation on the legality of some Invertebrates in the hobby.

As he said Florida and California are being watched closely, so they do have time to check people with mantis.

I know of a few petshops that were visited and asked if they had mantids for sale.

I have also seen an increase of wholesale suppliers offering CB mantis (exotics) openly.

Arkanis, one store was located around the Pasadena area, in california

regards,

francisco

francisco said:

Hello All,Hey Rick, did you correspond with Dr W Wehling???

It is the same information I got in Arizona at a conference where he was one of the presenters.

He gave us a good presentation on the legality of some Invertebrates in the hobby.

As he said Florida and California are being watched closely, so they do have time to check people with mantis.

I know of a few petshops that were visited and asked if they had mantids for sale.

I have also seen an increase of wholesale suppliers offering CB mantis (exotics) openly.

Arkanis, one store was located around the Pasadena area, in california

regards,

francisco

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Yes, that was him. What I find strange is that people can openly sell exotic mantids online but you can't bring a few to an event for educational purposes. <_< Now if that isn't backwards I dont' know what is.

Wow... I think this was it for the US with mantids...

For 250 years, they have introduced almost any pest animal of the world without hesitation, extirpating about one third or so of native fish species and a good bunch of terrestrial ones, and now they are worrying about some mantids? That's problem solving! Why am I remembered of something else?

Poor guys! I don't see any future in hobby pet trade over there. But I shouldn't be so loud, our shitty politicians tend to take anything that comes from the US as a model... :blink: we have to be very cautious here to avoid such tendencies from the beginning. Silly 'ultimate pet fight' videos on youtube and mass importing of ooths don't help to get a serious touch to that what we do. Unfortunately, there are enough idiots in the hobby that make the masses perceive us all negatively (particularly in the 'spider and snake corner').

Christian said:

Wow... I think this was it for the US with mantids... For 250 years, they have introduced almost any pest animal of the world without hesitation, extirpating about one third or so of native fish species and a good bunch of terrestrial ones, and now they are worrying about some mantids? That's problem solving! Why am I remembered of something else?

Poor guys! I don't see any future in hobby pet trade over there. But I shouldn't be so loud, our shitty politicians tend to take anything that comes from the US as a model... :blink: we have to be very cautious here to avoid such tendencies from the beginning. Silly 'ultimate pet fight' videos on youtube and mass importing of ooths don't help to get a serious touch to that what we do. Unfortunately, there are enough idiots in the hobby that make the masses perceive us all negatively (particularly in the 'spider and snake corner').

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Yep. Just like the bill that was introduced about non natives. That's what my sig is about. Now places like FL have a serious issue going on with non natives. There are pythons among others taking hold. I understand in that situation but that is it.

Praying Mantids: Keeping Illegal Aliens

bassist said:

Praying Mantids: Keeping Illegal Aliens

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:lol:

:lol:

now just so i understand, they are worried about what disease mantis carry? or whats the deal with them not allowing exotic mantis? other than eating everything that moves what other damages can they cause from being here....

d17oug18 said:

now just so i understand, they are worried about what disease mantis carry? or whats the deal with them not allowing exotic mantis? other than eating everything that moves what other damages can they cause from being here....

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According to APHIS, yes the mantis alone are not the problem but what ever is hitch riding inside of them is the concern. There are microorganism and pathogens that might impose a treat to our agriculture and wildlife.

I think the Ban on mantis started due to some findings here in California.

Rick, as they stated before APHIS does not have the man power or resources to enforce the way they would like to. Thi is a blessing for some and heck for others that have been visited by the bug police.

If they are not allowing you to bring them is because that facility is permited and they don't want to jeaopardise their permits.

regards

francisco

d17oug18 said:

now just so i understand, they are worried about what disease mantis carry? or whats the deal with them not allowing exotic mantis? other than eating everything that moves what other damages can they cause from being here....

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He said due to being a generalist predator.

so the APHIDS or USDA or whatever dont like that they eat not only harming bug but also helpful bugs. Thats it? shoot like rick said there are snakes and other predators killing humans and there worried about that? what a thing to worry about... but as i alwaz say, everyone needs a hobby lol. I love keeping exotic mantis, it sucks that there trying to stop it. I wanted to help rick with anything i have but all i gotz right now are "exotics". Oh rick if you want i have hatched out boxer ooths if you want um...

d17oug18 said:

so the APHIDS or USDA or whatever dont like that they eat not only harming bug but also helpful bugs. Thats it? shoot like rick said there are snakes and other predators killing humans and there worried about that? what a thing to worry about... but as i alwaz say, everyone needs a hobby lol. I love keeping exotic mantis, it sucks that there trying to stop it. I wanted to help rick with anything i have but all i gotz right now are "exotics". Oh rick if you want i have hatched out boxer ooths if you want um...

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No, no Doug! The problem with exotic "generalist predators" is that they are much more likely to spread, as an invasive species, than a specialized predator that could spread no further than the location of its particular prey. Patrick de Clercq (http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1519-566X2002000200001&tlng=en&lng=en&nrm=iso) points out that, "Non-native beneficials released in agricultural plots may invade and disrupt natural ecosystems (Howarth 1991, 2001). There is a general consensus that such risks may be more serious when generalists are employed (Lockwood et al. 2001)." And he is an agrozoologist in Belgium, so this is not something dreamed up by deranged APHIS agents.

When Superfreak asked if anyone would send her exotic mantids to oz last November, a number of members (including me ) warned her of the ecological perils involved, but that, in the opinion of many American members, does not apply to America, and those who would protect the environment are depicted as ignorant busybodies.

I most certainly don't hold a brief for APHIS, but I do suggest that for us to defend our position, we do need to know a few of the facts about the issue at hand.

See that makes more sense to me, still i dont want this hobby to be stopped because of few. But your explanation answered the questions i had in my own mind. =)

d17oug18 said:

See that makes more sense to me, still i dont want this hobby to be stopped because of few. But your explanation answered the questions i had in my own mind. =)

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This issue is nothing new Doug.

Rick said:

This issue is nothing new Doug.

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It is relatively new, the decision to 'make' mantids 'illegal' began in 2005 with importation halted by early 2006. It's odd the person in charge of deciding what requires permits would decide mantids are a risk to pollinators but tropical spiders, many of which build webs and catch all manner of pollinators, are just fine.

guess you cant forget about centipedes which all species are poisonous or most species are and seems alot of people are into phasmids more then mantids!