A strange method of slowing down growth

[Orin]

]Insects and inverts feel the pain - of course the other way than we do, but their nervous system is sophisticated enough to respond such a stimuli. So mutilating them just to have fun is not the best idea, and the run for cash doesn't justify it....

:shock: You feed your mantids only apple slices then? Should all mantids, spiders, lions, tigers etc. be forced to starve to death since they eat living creatures? Let's all pretend to have a little common sense here. :shock: BTW, the method was stolen from the ghosts phasmid book.

 

[lionsden112002]

No of course not apple slices these are family pets for goodness sake. Tofu toast with cheese!!

 

[joossa]

do crickets hurt? How big a bug does it need to be before some level of ethical concern is cognated.

The topic in question is something that is done by human to the mantid. Feeding prey and then felling sorry for the prey because they feel pain is irrelevant because it happens in nature all the time. Snipping off legs never happens naturally, therefore the ethical issue stands only on this and not on doing something that would regularly happen in the wild.

 

[Precious]

Calling a web site livescience doesn't neccessarily mean that it is a scientific one. BTW one can find article "Satellite Searches Could Spot Bigfoot, Loch Ness Monster" at the same web page....The rule of thumb in scientific publications is quoting a reliable source. So next time look for a better source (i truly recommend pubmed at: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed , and for the more popular approach, however based on reliable news and real research http://www.sciencedaily.com/)

For some reason all this story reminds me an old anecdote (dating form communist era in my country)...

It is about a Soviet enomologist working on fly hearing organs. He has been asked to prove if removing of the limbs affects hearing.

He dissected a leg, and shouted "Walk!" and the fly walked away.

Than he dissceted second leg, shouted "Walk!, and the fly walked away, again... An so on with the third and fourth leg.

Upon removing fifth leg, he shouted "Walk!" but the fly just fallen down on the lab bench. He shouted once again, but without any response from the fly...So the entomologist written down in hus lab journal: Upon dissection of five legs, the fly is completely deaf...

So this is about "science", and drawing conclusions matching your a priori assumptions. (and it is also about condition of science in Soviet Union )...

I am a scientist myself and it really pisses me off, when some guys mimic scientific approach to justify their weirdest ideas, or bussines of a big company(sadly, but the latter case is too often true in the medicine)....

Insects and inverts feel the pain - of course the other way than we do, but their nervous system is sophisticated enough to respond such a stimuli. So mutilating them just to have fun is not the best idea, and the run for cash doesn't justify it....

The site I linked to is one of hundreds that feature the Norwegian lobster study. I did not go to the site and look for information. I am familiar with the study and picked that site out of many. The article is about research conducted at Olso University and, while government funded, the methods appear sound and the conclusion is reasonable (the researchers do suggest further experimentation). I'm educated in the scientific method and statistical/research methods. Your "scientist" title is irrelevant to me. Everyone on this forum is qualified to overview the literature and come to a conclusion. The issue of invertebrate pain experience continues to be hotly debated by experts in the various associated sciences. I find the preponderance of evidence to be on the side of those who assert that insects do not have the capability of processing and perceiving pain as we think of. As an American, I respect your freedom to disagree.

Snipping the legs off of a praying mantid to slow it's growth for purposes of breeding is hardly "mutilation" and certainly it is not done in the name of money. Mantid breeding is not a million dollar industry. (Though you do seem to have an inordinate fear of Capitalism.) Perhaps your enthusiam would be better directed at very real human crises on this planet.

Farmers castrate livestock, breeders alter domestic dogs and humans circumcise male children. It is part of life. I think it is very clever to note that growth rate in mantids can be effected by snipping the legs and to use that information to adjust for deviations in maturation. Very clever indeed.

 

[Christian]

Snipping the legs off of a praying mantid to slow it's growth for purposes of breeding is hardly "mutilation"...Farmers castrate livestock, breeders alter domestic dogs and humans circumcise male children. It is part of life. I think it is very clever to note that growth rate in mantids can be effected by snipping the legs and to use that information to adjust for deviations in maturation. Very clever indeed.

I do not agree with this point of view.

First: cutting off the foreleg of a mantid IS mutilation. Mantids use the forelegs for prey capture, so every injure of the forelegs affects prey capture and thus food intake, energy benefit and, lastly, overall fitness. Thus, this is a mutilation and this is exactly the reason why the development is slowed down. The mantid may be slower, but it is certainly not healthier.

Secondly: "It is part of life". No, it isn't. It is part of human life. This is a small, but significant difference. Humans (as a whole) do not respect life. They do not even respect themselves, how can one expect other life to be respected? However, this goes too far. The examples listed here cannot be compared to the legless mantid. As I said before, altering food intake affects fitness. It is like breaking the jaw of a mammal and watch it licking liquids for the next few weeks. With the difference that a jaw can heal, but a mantid foreleg is usually not regenerated. The mentioned alterations in the examples do not affect food intake.

The point is: this method is nothing but a last way out for people who were not able to breed a species in the normal way and now try to manipulate it in a way they can feel as having been successful. "Breeding" species like this is really piteous. It is by no means "clever". But hey, what do I know...

 

[Precious]

Where did you get foreleg? Yen said "a leg". It would be counterproductive to hack off a foreleg. I maintain that it is clever and not at all inhumane. I have very good data that supports my belief. You feel differently and that's great, but do you have to remark so sharply? Be arrogant and rude? I have a valid opinion supported by scientific data. You don't need to assault my opinion to make your own valid.

This thread needs to die. It's way off track and has disentegrated into patronizing banter that just breeds ill will.

I'm going to sleep now, and while I sleep 23,000 children will die of starvation and preventable disease. So you weep for the bugs, I have given this drivel too much of my time already.

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