Am I doing something wrong?

[MantisGirl13]

Overeating is not a problem (Usually) for adult females. I guess we will never know what happened! I am sorry for your loss.

- MantisGirl13

 

[hysteresis]

I just received Orin's latest mantis book. Nice hardcover FULL of facts.

I just read that mantids drop dead if kept in high humidity with poor air circulation. Their respiratory system is passive, and needs time to react. By the time you've hit them with too much humidity and poor air, even if you take them out, the system doesn't correct very quickly. It will eventually if the bug is still alive.

Coincidentally, that lag is an example of hysteresis in a system.  

I will leave my enclosures to air. I can mist the goldens and rhombos two or theee times daily as required.

Thanks Mr. McMonigle. I will make good use of this book, and the information contained within.

 

[Graceface]

I just received Orin's latest mantis book. Nice hardcover FULL of facts.

I just read that mantids drop dead if kept in high humidity with poor air circulation. Their respiratory system is passive, and needs time to react. By the time you've hit them with too much humidity and poor air, even if you take them out, the system doesn't correct very quickly. It will eventually if the bug is still alive.

Coincidentally, that lag is an example of hysteresis in a system.  

I will leave my enclosures to air. I can mist the goldens and rhombos two or theee times daily as required.

I have that book, too! It's great

I feel ya about the humidity. I worried about stale air when I started keeping Orchids. I have a lid covering 85% of the aquarium so that it vents, and an ultrasonic humidifier/reptile fogger on a controller that keeps the humidity within the programmed range. It kicks on every 5 to 10minutes. I also have large vents on the enclosures so the air in the tank circulates in the enclosures, and I access the enclosures daily to vent the microclimate. Perhaps it isn't enough air, but also I have other mantids in the same aquarium doing just fine, and 2 other tanks with the same set up with no issues, so I'm inclined to say that wasn't the problem for Heidi. 

For now I'm chalking my loss of Heidi up to my awful, Charlie Brown luck. Good grief

Thanks to all for the support, well wishes and condolences  

 

[hysteresis]

Radical changeup of my enclosures tonight. All three species. Problem is two of my species are still eating hydei and they get out through the screen.

We're running cool mist humidifiers so our ambient RH is low 40s.

I found it shocking that misting should dry up within 30 minutes. All my species have been soaking for days! 

 

[Graceface]

Radical changeup of my enclosures tonight. All three species. Problem is two of my species are still eating hydei and they get out through the screen.

We're running cool mist humidifiers so our ambient RH is low 40s.

I found it shocking that misting should dry up within 30 minutes. All my species have been soaking for days! 

We keep our small mantids in clear drink cups or portion cups. I cut a hole out of the lid and hot glued in some fine mesh fabric as a vent. The mesh is fine enough that the FF can't escape, and we still get ventilation. Below is a drink cup lid I modified. 

 

Can you modify your lids to use a fine mesh? Or add a layer of fine mesh? 

 

[hysteresis]

@Graceface

I orginally window meshed these small jars, then stuffed an untreated cotton pad as shown, under the lid. One in the bottom as a substrate.

My initial worry was that at molt, as they push out, the fiber might give a bit not allowing them to release themselves. 

It held all the moisture in. Maybe ill throw 1 ply of TP under the mesh to hold the FF until I find something more suitable.

I'll keep on with these pads as nymph substrate tho. Excellent. 

I have coco fiber as well (for the older goldens) but dubias....

 

[Mantis Lady]

That is what i do with the lids of my cups too

 

[Graceface]

That is what i do with the lids of my cups too

Nice! It works well. Once they get past the Hydeii phase, I use a square of tulle between the cup and lid as an extra molting surface, which they seem to prefer. The holes on the tulle are sometimes too big for the smaller Hydeii and they climb through. 

Currently past any need of fruit flies until I get more Orchid nymphs or have a successful breeding with Jane. 

 

[Graceface]

I'm adding to this topic rather than start a new one, as I'm experiencing the exact same thing with Jane today.

Jane has been healthy and acting normally. I fed her yesterday, she consumed 8 of 12 blue bottle flies I gave her. I removed the 4 uneaten flies this morning and she was fine. It has been about 2 or 3 hours since I removed the flies, and she sick. Jane is discolored, and has been 'breathing heavy' I'll call it, pumping her abdomen, with occasional convulsions/spasms.

I fed her some raw honey water and she drank, but she is not moving now and I know how this ended twice before. I fear and expect the worst

Here is a photo of her. Idk if you can see the brown spots on her raptorials. She has brown spots on her face, as well as a general sickly looking tone, very different from her normal striking white. 



I'm honestly out of ideas as to what is wrong. Genetics? I got all the affected females from Panterra Pets. Idk, though, as my males from the same bloodline are perfectly healthy kept in similar conditions, just slightly cooler (72 f VS 84 f) 

I feed the same blue bottles to 40 other mantids with no issues

Is there an illness that has these symptoms for mantids? I'll go research it in Orin's book later, but I have 40 other mouths to feed right now. 

Merry Christmas to me

 

[Mantis Lady]

 Sorry hear  that Jane got sick too

it is strange that affects only your females and not your males. Maybe it is genectics, but I really dont know

*hugs*

 

[Graceface]

 Sorry hear  that Jane got sick too

it is strange that affects only your females and not your males. Maybe it is genectics, but I really dont know

*hugs*

Thanks, friend, I sure need hugs today.

I'm out of ideas as to things I can do to improve and prevent this in the future. It's really disheartening to have every adult female Orchid die in my helpless hands. My L4/5s and adult males doing great 

 

[hysteresis]

Guh! How disheartening!

This isn't the outcome I was hoping for.

Sorry this is happening, @Graceface.

 

[Graceface]

Thanks @hysteresis

I poured over Orin's book hoping for a clue as to something I can try. Maybe more ventilation for the adult female enclosures? Here is a quote from pg 165: "Well fed adult females require good ventilation or they fall over dead (a mostly screen cage, or air circulated by a fan or aquarium pump is sufficient)." 

I have a plastic enclosure with a screen top in a ventilated aquarium tank. While I don't really think they dropped dead due to stale air, perhaps I will cut the sides of the enclosure out as well, or add a fan or aquarium pump as Orin suggests, to be safe. He does specifically mention well fed females need more ventilation, so males and nymphs may be fine in my setup and that is why my female adults are the only ones suffering from this anomaly. I suppose more vents can't possibly hurt them as long as my humidity is in range. 

Interestingly, both Heidi and Jane lived the exact number of days as an adult, Letty only 4 days shorter. It seems odd that they would be fine in the same conditions for weeks and then all of a sudden fall ill from the air when nothing changed to spur this. Letty wasn't "well fed" either, as she had injuries and ate a third of what the others did. Idk... I'm rambling now, sorry. I'm pretty bummed out

 

[hysteresis]

@Graceface i wouldnt cut too much away at once. A little goes a long way.

Ive been playing with my hygrometers and can tell you just 20pct more opening dries substrates out much faster than I would have expected. 

 

[Graceface]

@Graceface i wouldnt cut too much away at once. A little goes a long way.

Ive been playing with my hygrometers and can tell you just 20pct more opening dries substrates out much faster than I would have expected. 

My substrate already dries out within a day, so I personally feel there is enough ventilation. I guess I just don't know what else to try. All my other Orchids are male or L4/5 now so I have a while to think about it, lol.

Coincidentally, while I have many hygrometers already, I ordered some with probes the other day so I could monitor the humidity inside the enclosures VS the air in the tank around the enclosures. I'll do a test when they finally arrive on the slow boat from China via eBay

 

[hysteresis]

Good plan.

Orin also writes about being sensitized to humidities and temperatures. Remember that? Something like that?

If you keep them too humid,  they're less able to tolerate a dry out. 

 

[Graceface]

Good plan.

Orin also writes about being sensitized to humidities and temperatures. Remember that? Something like that?

If you keep them too humid,  they're less able to tolerate a dry out. 

Im leaning towards some kind of contamination being the cause. The turning brown makes me believe they got infected by something. I have no evidence of any mold or bacteria in the enclosures or tank, but the human eye can't physically see bacteria and germs. The way they all got brown spots and then turned brown seems disease related.

I can't find any info on potential diseases for Mantids, as Orin says there's not much that can be done since "few issues can be meaningfully treated or fixed." He also says, "If animals are dying, they are not getting the proper amount of food, air, or water. Some species require a more narrow set of conditions but deaths are nearly always the result of improper conditions."

Ugh. ###### am I doing wrong to my adult girls?! I will set up the adult enclosure and put a hygrometer inside, and one outside and see if there is a major difference. My substrate dries out in less than a day so I feel I'm giving enough ventilation, but I'm running out of ideas and with 3 almost identical deaths, I must be making a mistake somewhere, right?? 

The three amigos, aka my 3 adult male orchids are still totally fine, 8 weeks mature and going strong (kept in 32oz cups with fabric lids, with not a single death and I've matured 7 males to adult)

Anyone who has kept Orchids successfully have some advice as to what I can do to improve/prevent this from happening again? 

Photo examples of enclosures for your adult females? Do they differ from the enclosures for your males other than size (ie more vents, etc) 

Anything would be appreciated

 

[hysteresis]

@Graceface you're right, i think, considering the discoloration. 

I'll try to do some searches myself in a while. Have to do some shopping for our late family xmas dinner tonight, as both stepdaughters havent been here until today.

I sincerely hope you can gain some understanding of this situation.

 

[Graceface]

@Graceface you're right, i think, considering the discoloration. 

I'll try to do some searches myself in a while. Have to do some shopping for our late family xmas dinner tonight, as both stepdaughters havent been here until today.

I sincerely hope you can gain some understanding of this situation.

Thank you, friend. I love my Orchids and I just wanna succeed. I don't get why the adult females are having an issue and no one else is. There must be a flaw somewhere. Even if they are getting sick, there must be something I can do to prevent it. 

You don't need to do any research for me,enjoy your holiday dinner I'm hoping someone here who has experience with Orchids may be able to chime in and help. I'd love a verification as if my enclosures are adequate, or if there is a glaring problem in my system. I may reach out to a breeder and ask what they do for their females

 

[hysteresis]

Yeh im still gonna look because I think it's worthwhile. ✌

This seems idiopathic so maybe it "doesn't take much" to have this happen to mantids. Super worthwhile.