sporeworld
Well-known member
Wow. The FAQ's on this page ( http://www.axolotl.org/faq.htm ) are fantastic! Not the easiest to sort through, but great.
Care Sheets by MantidForum.Net
- Thread starter sporeworld
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Who said it would be like that? The caresheet WOULD cover multi species. I am pretty sure I mentioned that. However, many could fall under a general care sheet and those would be listed. How many species have you kept? Nobody said it would simply say good luck.
No meds here. I am not upset nor do I want to make anyone "mad." The bad thing about text is that you don't know the writers' tone. Don't mistake my posting style to mean I am mad or upset at anyone.Well Peter J F, If you mess with the bull you get the horns. ^_^
I think Rick is off his meds again?
Don't ream me too bad Rick It's only a joke, and honestly you have a point.
I agree that my comment was poorly executed. You got me there. But elitism? Ha. I am a mod on a bug forum. Nothing elite about that. I also am not an expert by any means. I am a hobbyist plain and simple. Though I have been observing and interacting with these particular insects since I was old enough to walk. I know a little about them.
I don't think we want to drive anyone away to look at care info. I think most people figure out pretty quickly that a lot of hte care info on the net is poorly written. Maybe a lot of you are new to forums. There is plenty of info here already. In fact, I bet there is more quality info here on the subject than anywhere else on the net.
Nobody is judging anyone. He has a valid point. I feel care sheets are an excellent idea. However I feel that writing a care sheet on every single species is impractical. Anybody who has kept more than a handful of species will tell you that. Especially when care for many of them can be lumped into one general basic care sheet. That is the point I am trying to make.
NObody here is trying to argue or "fight" with anyone else. Including me. What do you mean "what is this place coming to?" Check your join date again. You just got here.
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dgerndt
Well-known member
Sorry to pop in so late on the topic here!
All of you have very good points. But speaking as a newbie, I think care sheets would be a wonderful idea. I came across this site several times during my search for mantis information. But when I saw that this was a forum and I'd have to join to be able to post, I just clicked the back button to Google search and eventually tried Yahoo Answers again. It took at least four separate occasions of being linked to this website before I finally decided to join. I especially felt intimidated by some of the more educated forum members (including you, Phil. Your type of humor can easily be interpreted as anger or conceit). This is also the first forum I have been an active member of, so I can see why a lot of people would just keep going with Google when finding this site. I did, obviously.
Also speaking from my experience, I searched specifically for care sheets. I didn't want to read small bits and pieces of information from all over. And most of the info I found was inconsistant, to say the least. I feel that even a few good care sheets would help bring in new members, and ultimately keep people from killing their mantids because of improper care and misinformation.
But, hey, that's just me. I hope I didn't offend anyone (especially you, Phil!).
All of you have very good points. But speaking as a newbie, I think care sheets would be a wonderful idea. I came across this site several times during my search for mantis information. But when I saw that this was a forum and I'd have to join to be able to post, I just clicked the back button to Google search and eventually tried Yahoo Answers again. It took at least four separate occasions of being linked to this website before I finally decided to join. I especially felt intimidated by some of the more educated forum members (including you, Phil. Your type of humor can easily be interpreted as anger or conceit). This is also the first forum I have been an active member of, so I can see why a lot of people would just keep going with Google when finding this site. I did, obviously.
Also speaking from my experience, I searched specifically for care sheets. I didn't want to read small bits and pieces of information from all over. And most of the info I found was inconsistant, to say the least. I feel that even a few good care sheets would help bring in new members, and ultimately keep people from killing their mantids because of improper care and misinformation.
But, hey, that's just me. I hope I didn't offend anyone (especially you, Phil!).
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PhilinYuma
Well-known member
No offense taken, Deby, though I hate top think what you'd say if you did wish to offend!
Let me try a different tack on this.
Newb or not, I'm sure that you know that Yen Saw is the leading mantis breeder in the US and one of the most respected in the world. Have you gone to his website, USA Mantis that he directs you to on his posts? If so, you have seen his care sheets, concise, precise, accurate. And not much good for the rank beginner.
O.K. You have decided to raise Acromantis formosana, a nice simple species. Oh dear, although he has more care sheets than any site I can think of, he hasn't gotten round to that one. Let's try that old stanby, the ghost mantis. There it is! What to feed it. Flies, roaches crickets. Let's toss some crix in with the babies. Well the crix look fatter, but the nymphs are gone.
Worse is to come! He recommends a temp of 80-95F during the day and 75F at night and a humidity of 70%RH How am I going to get a humity that high here in Yuma in the winter? And if I use heat lamps during the day, won't it drop to 70F- at night? No solution to that problem in the care sheet and there shouldn't be or it would be a care tome.
No. It's gonna get worse. I found the environmental paramaters for those A. formosana on the site, 85F and 60% RH (hope I have these right, I'm quoting from memory). Now how am I going to raise these two species in one bug room with such different requirements? In caresheet terms, its a mystery.
And what about other members who have markedly different approaches to raising the same species, like a humidity of nearkly 100RH for flower mantids and a warning to never feed anything but flying insects, and this from a highly respected breeder who has good success with these species.
No, I am not saying that these problems are reason enough to abandon the project, especially as no one, quite rightly, would heed my suggestion. What I do say, though, is that these are real problems and unless you adress them early on in the project, it will be hard to bring it to a successful conclusion.
Let me try a different tack on this.
Newb or not, I'm sure that you know that Yen Saw is the leading mantis breeder in the US and one of the most respected in the world. Have you gone to his website, USA Mantis that he directs you to on his posts? If so, you have seen his care sheets, concise, precise, accurate. And not much good for the rank beginner.
O.K. You have decided to raise Acromantis formosana, a nice simple species. Oh dear, although he has more care sheets than any site I can think of, he hasn't gotten round to that one. Let's try that old stanby, the ghost mantis. There it is! What to feed it. Flies, roaches crickets. Let's toss some crix in with the babies. Well the crix look fatter, but the nymphs are gone.
Worse is to come! He recommends a temp of 80-95F during the day and 75F at night and a humidity of 70%RH How am I going to get a humity that high here in Yuma in the winter? And if I use heat lamps during the day, won't it drop to 70F- at night? No solution to that problem in the care sheet and there shouldn't be or it would be a care tome.
No. It's gonna get worse. I found the environmental paramaters for those A. formosana on the site, 85F and 60% RH (hope I have these right, I'm quoting from memory). Now how am I going to raise these two species in one bug room with such different requirements? In caresheet terms, its a mystery.
And what about other members who have markedly different approaches to raising the same species, like a humidity of nearkly 100RH for flower mantids and a warning to never feed anything but flying insects, and this from a highly respected breeder who has good success with these species.
No, I am not saying that these problems are reason enough to abandon the project, especially as no one, quite rightly, would heed my suggestion. What I do say, though, is that these are real problems and unless you adress them early on in the project, it will be hard to bring it to a successful conclusion.
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I agree with you Deby on the requirement to register to browse the site. Maybe it would be possible that somebody like Yen would post his caresheets here or something along those lines. It does sadden me when people get their care advice from somewhere like yahoo answers. I've thought many times over the years about writing up something. I am sure in time it will be something we have here.
Wow, u guys have to much time on your hands, glad I am outta this one. :blink:
ok, I gave my 2 cents, but I got a dime left over so here we go...
even if we have a simple care sheet like Rebecca has on her site, and an advanced care sheet like Yen (i've only been able to find his logs, but they are extencive), there would still be plenty of questions posted on this website.
I agree that most of us keep all of our mantids in the same room with the same temps and humidity.
mantids are great at adapting to what we give them.
but many of us would like to have a few advanced care sheets that describe how they live and there suroundings...like for D. Lobata I would raise the nymphs in deli cups, but as sub adults I would transfer them to a nice enclosure with dead ficus leaves on the bottom and a few branches from my dead ficus collection. the background and sides I can use fake silk plants to add color and contrast. the end result would look just how we would find (or not find) them in the wild. without doing my homework and tons of research, just how would a newbie like myself know how to keep such adults in an environment that best suits them? something that makes them blend in and be a true preditor that they are. beats keeping one in a glass jar with a stick and some ferms collected from outside like I'm some scientist keeping some like a lab rat.
temps and humidity isn't everything. I get lots of ideas from reading and looking at photos in this forum. this is what makes this forum so good. and don't worry Phil, I'll make sure I have plenty of questions to keep you busy even if we have such care sheets with maybe some photos to go along with them to show some housing ideas.
I just wouldn't want any bickering over what is the only way we should keep them. so if you like soft mesh enclosures then good. if someone else likes glass, that's fine too. we don't need to fight over the small stuff.
yet posting some care sheets wouldn't harm this site at all. if anything, it would draw people to at least read (lurk) here and they will know where to come if they run into any questions later.
ok, my dime ran out.
Harry
even if we have a simple care sheet like Rebecca has on her site, and an advanced care sheet like Yen (i've only been able to find his logs, but they are extencive), there would still be plenty of questions posted on this website.
I agree that most of us keep all of our mantids in the same room with the same temps and humidity.
mantids are great at adapting to what we give them.
but many of us would like to have a few advanced care sheets that describe how they live and there suroundings...like for D. Lobata I would raise the nymphs in deli cups, but as sub adults I would transfer them to a nice enclosure with dead ficus leaves on the bottom and a few branches from my dead ficus collection. the background and sides I can use fake silk plants to add color and contrast. the end result would look just how we would find (or not find) them in the wild. without doing my homework and tons of research, just how would a newbie like myself know how to keep such adults in an environment that best suits them? something that makes them blend in and be a true preditor that they are. beats keeping one in a glass jar with a stick and some ferms collected from outside like I'm some scientist keeping some like a lab rat.
temps and humidity isn't everything. I get lots of ideas from reading and looking at photos in this forum. this is what makes this forum so good. and don't worry Phil, I'll make sure I have plenty of questions to keep you busy even if we have such care sheets with maybe some photos to go along with them to show some housing ideas.
I just wouldn't want any bickering over what is the only way we should keep them. so if you like soft mesh enclosures then good. if someone else likes glass, that's fine too. we don't need to fight over the small stuff.
yet posting some care sheets wouldn't harm this site at all. if anything, it would draw people to at least read (lurk) here and they will know where to come if they run into any questions later.
ok, my dime ran out.
Harry
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angelofdeathzz
Well-known member
angelofdeathzz, on 04 January 2011 - 12:43 AM, said:Well Sporeworld is a A1 member to this forum bar none, he gives to people and wants no fame or recognition so don't judge him unless you have talked to him personally like I have had the Honor to do!!!! he is just trying to make one small point, its not worth brother against brother. SO YOU ALL JUST COOL OUT for a minute...###### is this place coming too,
PEACE OUT
Nobody is judging anyone. He has a valid point. I feel care sheets are an excellent idea. However I feel that writing a care sheet on every single species is impractical. Anybody who has kept more than a handful of species will tell you that. Especially when care for many of them can be lumped into one general basic care sheet. That is the point I am trying to make.
NObody here is trying to argue or "fight" with anyone else. Including me. What do you mean "what is this place coming to?" Check your join date again. You just got here.
--My comment was aimed at Phil not you Rick.
I don't agree with Phil on saying Sporewold is "demanding care sheets or attacking the haves" I don't know Mark as well as I know some other members here, but I do know he would give someone the shirt off his back if he thought it would help. And I don't understand why Phil 50% of the time is so course and down right bitter sounding to members that are just asking a simple(newbie) question? does he know alot about bugs and many other things, YES he is quite intelligent, so much so I think he doesn't know how to deal with a lesser individual with out sounding like he's bashing them for a simple Innocent comment and or question.
As for you Rick, we don't always see eye to eye but I know you have a job to do here and in the end I think you do it well. I now know you don't sweet'n up your words to sound nice, you just say it like you see it and that's ok and I can respect that. but when some members talk like it's there way or the highway that eerks me. especially when they are so polite to long time members but jump on a newbie and make them feel like a dumb azz for a simple statement or question. I know thats probably not going to change but it doesn't mean we have to take it. I for one will fire back!
Maybe its just the nature of the beast in a forum this large and I'll just have to learn to live with it like others here have? I don't mean to single out Phil but think thats what happened, so sorry Phil if I sound like a younger punk thats trying to rain on your parade, thats not my intent . your the Mantid Godfather here as we all know.
And yes I am basically a newbie here myself I know, but have talked to many member's here over time and they all feel the same as me, some don't even post that much anymore because of what I already stated, so I'm either carrying on like a big baby or I have a valid point? to each thier own I guess.
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PhilinYuma
Well-known member
Well, my goodness, I feel your pain, and I have a remedy. The admins here give a fair amount of leeway on posts, but I'm sure that they don't want members being made to feel like dumb azzez. Have you seen the "report button" on the bottom left corner of each post? If you find that I or any other member is posting something offensive, just hit that button. A window will pop up (yep, I've used it!) asking why you are reporting the post and you can put in something like, "This poster is being coarse and downright bitter, again" or "He is really eerking me". If the admin agrees that it is offensive, it will be removed and the poster may even be awarded dreaded "warning points".
Now that that is sorted, I know of no one who has a problem with members writing caresheets. Obviously, anyone can write a caresheet right now and post it under "general mantis discussions". You don't need special permission,
Who will write them? Long-term members have not done so, so will that leave those who have not been here long but have experience (i.e. bred a species through two generations)? I suspect that many advocates of this "project" want to be readers rather than writers, and if I have any objection at all about the way that this thread has proceded it is when I sense that some folks are demanding to be looked after rather than volunteering to write a caresheet, or better yet, just doing it and posting the result. Some folks are putting this slightly differently and saying that someone should be writing these sheets for the good of the forum. If you want something done, goes the saying, do it yourself.
Care sheets posted in the regular forums, though, will quickly cease to become readily accessible except through the search engine, so do you want them in a new forum? Has anyone contacted Peter with this proposal? And to prevent errors that might mislead others, should they be approved by admin before being accepted?
Can there be several different caresheets on the same mantis to reflect different rearing practices?
Should the care sheets be generic, grouped according to the habits and special needs of different groups or individuals? Both types have their advantages and disadvantages.
I must say that I have enjoyed some of the rhetorical flourishes (flourishettes?) on this thread, but now , surely, it is time for the care-sheet activists to settle down and produce some care sheets. I, for one am looking forward to them.
Good luck!
Now that that is sorted, I know of no one who has a problem with members writing caresheets. Obviously, anyone can write a caresheet right now and post it under "general mantis discussions". You don't need special permission,
Who will write them? Long-term members have not done so, so will that leave those who have not been here long but have experience (i.e. bred a species through two generations)? I suspect that many advocates of this "project" want to be readers rather than writers, and if I have any objection at all about the way that this thread has proceded it is when I sense that some folks are demanding to be looked after rather than volunteering to write a caresheet, or better yet, just doing it and posting the result. Some folks are putting this slightly differently and saying that someone should be writing these sheets for the good of the forum. If you want something done, goes the saying, do it yourself.
Care sheets posted in the regular forums, though, will quickly cease to become readily accessible except through the search engine, so do you want them in a new forum? Has anyone contacted Peter with this proposal? And to prevent errors that might mislead others, should they be approved by admin before being accepted?
Can there be several different caresheets on the same mantis to reflect different rearing practices?
Should the care sheets be generic, grouped according to the habits and special needs of different groups or individuals? Both types have their advantages and disadvantages.
I must say that I have enjoyed some of the rhetorical flourishes (flourishettes?) on this thread, but now , surely, it is time for the care-sheet activists to settle down and produce some care sheets. I, for one am looking forward to them.
Good luck!
Peter Clausen
Well-known member
I admit I've not read page 3 of this discussion, but two pages seemed plenty. I have taken the opportunity to provide a pinned caresheet in the main discussion forum here:
http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=20114
Please review it, contribute suggestions through replies and we'll take it from there.
It will sound political, but I tend to agree with most of what I've read on the various sides of this discussion.
Change has occurred, for better or worse. Time will tell and some of us will still be around to make additional changes
http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=20114
Please review it, contribute suggestions through replies and we'll take it from there.
It will sound political, but I tend to agree with most of what I've read on the various sides of this discussion.
Change has occurred, for better or worse. Time will tell and some of us will still be around to make additional changes
angelofdeathzz
Well-known member
In the end I myself may have sounded a little harsh, but as far as reporting you or anyone else thats probably not going to happen, Its not my style, I would rather deal with it myself(hence all the rambling I've done on this post).
I for one do not have the needed writing skills or knowledge to make care sheets, I think that it would take several members or maybe a large group of members to pull together and hammer out the details, along with newbie's like me adding there two cents before the final draft was made.
It's does sound like it would be a rather hard task to do but not impossible by any means? I'm also not sure how one would get the structure started? a simple post???
Well Peter posted while I was writing this so problem solved I think. -Thanks Peter-
I for one do not have the needed writing skills or knowledge to make care sheets, I think that it would take several members or maybe a large group of members to pull together and hammer out the details, along with newbie's like me adding there two cents before the final draft was made.
It's does sound like it would be a rather hard task to do but not impossible by any means? I'm also not sure how one would get the structure started? a simple post???
Well Peter posted while I was writing this so problem solved I think. -Thanks Peter-
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sporeworld
Well-known member
sporeworld
Well-known member
Great! I admit, I didn't finish it yet (I gotta buzz off to work) but that seems like a huge leap forward. I can see something like that as a pin under a seperate (bold listed) forum heading like "New Mantis Overview" or "Basic Mantid Care" or something like that. It's a really exciting start and easy to build on. Kudos!
I'm still going to spend this weekend researching other approaches to care sheets and see if someone has found a fresh approach with other critters (how do Dog Breeders approach it, or ferrets or inverts or herps). I know members here can (and probably will) contribute pictures to illustrate points - I think the caresheet on salamanders listed earlier in the thread was gorgeous, and the pictures helped lazy readers (me) make it through the text (oooo, if I could just make the careheet into a comic book! The magic of sequential art!).
Very exciting stuff! Thanks again, Peter!
dgerndt
Well-known member
I feel like the whole problem with keeping mantids, and therefore making care sheets, is that there just is a huge shortage of actual scientific information that is easily accessable. This may not be the same for everyone, but I personally want to find out everything I can about mantids. I actually searched for hours, just looking for information on mantids in the wild. I feel like the best way to keep a mantis is to replicate their environment as much as possible. That being said, I understand that isn't very realistic for the new mantis owner, or for people who own many species. But I think it's worth noting in any care sheet where the mantis comes from. Some names are obvious, like Chinese, Egyptian, African Stick, etc... But as we all know (hopefully), Chinese and European are very common in the United States, and they thrive here. Names can be misleading to a new hobbiest, and to make it worse, some don't even have common names.
Basically, I feel like the main reason for care sheets is to help spread our knowledge, and help the beginning mantis lover. Personally, I would love to help with the care sheets (really great job so far, Peter!), but I haven't even raised ONE generation of mantids. Maybe I can help out more when I become an entomologist. Too bad that'll be years from now...
Basically, I feel like the main reason for care sheets is to help spread our knowledge, and help the beginning mantis lover. Personally, I would love to help with the care sheets (really great job so far, Peter!), but I haven't even raised ONE generation of mantids. Maybe I can help out more when I become an entomologist.
Too bad that'll be years from now...PhilinYuma
Well-known member
Well, you'll get there if you want to! Have you just entered college? I see that you are 18. Under the American system, you still have two years (in theory!) to shop ariound before declaring your major. Cram as many entomology courses as you can in your biology curriculum and then you can consider pursuing entomology, like at least two of our members, in graduate school.
In the meantime, consider volunteering at a museum or zoo near you (if there is one), and buy or look at:'
Frederick R. Prete (ed) The Praying Mantids, 1999 Now remaindered and quite cheap
Ken Preston-Mafham, Grasshoppers and Mantids of the world, 1990.
For a good field guide to the U.S. species, try:
Jacques R. Helfer, How to Know the Grasshoppers, Crickets, Cockroaches and their Allies 1987.
In the meantime, consider volunteering at a museum or zoo near you (if there is one), and buy or look at:'
Frederick R. Prete (ed) The Praying Mantids, 1999 Now remaindered and quite cheap
Ken Preston-Mafham, Grasshoppers and Mantids of the world, 1990.
For a good field guide to the U.S. species, try:
Jacques R. Helfer, How to Know the Grasshoppers, Crickets, Cockroaches and their Allies 1987.
dgerndt
Well-known member
Thanks for the book suggestions, Phil. I will definately look into those. I see that grasshoppers are mentioned in two of those book titles. It reminded me of something my boyfriend said this morning as I explained to him that mantids live in tall grass sometimes. He said "Well, you know. Grasshoppers live in grass." And so I nodded and figured he meant they live there so they can EAT the grasshoppers. Apparently, he thought mantids and grasshoppers are the same thing. inch: Are they closely related, at least? Maybe he has some redemption if that's true.
Anyway, I just started college this last August (just days before my 18th birthday! Yay, college at 17!). I don't know if they offer many entomology courses at my school, since it's just community college. But I do live right next to the University of Michigan, and there is a really nice museum of natural history there. Not sure how great their insect section is, though.
Sorry for being so off topic, everyone!
inch: Are they closely related, at least? Maybe he has some redemption if that's true.Anyway, I just started college this last August (just days before my 18th birthday! Yay, college at 17!). I don't know if they offer many entomology courses at my school, since it's just community college. But I do live right next to the University of Michigan, and there is a really nice museum of natural history there. Not sure how great their insect section is, though.
Sorry for being so off topic, everyone!
dgerndt
Well-known member
Thanks for the encouraging words, Rick. I have already learned a lot from you and all the other members here. I'm glad there is a place where I can get first-hand knowledge from experienced and intelligent mantis keepers.
I have already learned a lot from you and all the other members here. I'm glad there is a place where I can get first-hand knowledge from experienced and intelligent mantis keepers.
sporeworld
Well-known member
I'm still wading through various CareSheet (good Lord, that's taxing), but wanted to check in. Hats off, Peter, for putting yours together so quickly!
As I'm making a mockup and want to use pics from this forum, is it permissable to use the image with a big "pending approval from Precious" written across it, or do I need to get approvale from the author first...? Can I pixelate the mantids face and be OK...? (Mostly joking).
As I'm making a mockup and want to use pics from this forum, is it permissable to use the image with a big "pending approval from Precious" written across it, or do I need to get approvale from the author first...? Can I pixelate the mantids face and be OK...? (Mostly joking).
Koshmar
Member
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Care sheets are very nice indeed for a new hobbiest. When I was first starting out with stomatopods I couldn't fine anything until I stumbled upon this webpage called Roy's List. After I saw what it had in terms of info, I almost had a seizure due to the excitement and joy. That page of care sheets is pretty much the word of god on mantis shrimp forums. If you guys had something like that, new hobbiests would love it. Here's a link to the page if you guys want an example:
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/arthropoda/crustacea/malacostraca/eumalacostraca/royslist/
If you guys had access to like an E O Wilson of mantids, I bet you could work to make something with that kind of professional signature/stamp. Just trying to help and give ideas. I love this site regardless though, it's helped a lot.
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/arthropoda/crustacea/malacostraca/eumalacostraca/royslist/
If you guys had access to like an E O Wilson of mantids, I bet you could work to make something with that kind of professional signature/stamp. Just trying to help and give ideas. I love this site regardless though, it's helped a lot.
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