check out these beauties...

[Christian]

Hi.

There seems that you guys think these species are about to get extinct. This is not the case yet. But they are vulnerable to deforestation, as many other plants and animals. Breeding it in captivity for conservation purposes would require 1. a sponsoring and coordination by a Zoo or something similar, 2. knowledge about the requirements for breeding it successfully over generations, 3. a suitable habitat for release. Now: if the habitat would get lost, so they become endangered, then where to release them? Secondly, forest species are difficult to breed over generations without "new blood". Which strictly primary or secondary forest species has been bred up to date for generations without new specimens? Why do some species dissapear after a while? Because no new specimens are available and the actual stock is not well sustained. Hymenopus? Not as hard as always said. But new wild caught specimens are available regularly. Deroplatys? Easy, nonetheless fresh blood is needed from time to time. Now try to remember which forst species has been bred for generations without new genetic input. Human-adapted species like Hierodula membranacea not included (they may live in suburbs, too). All frequent species are savanna or dry woodland species, or species of forest edges.

I did not intend to imply that only "experienced" breeders will be successful. I said that most people will be not, regardless of what they may consider themselves. Some will be lucky though. All this in the case the specimens are here. I do not see that this is about to happen. You're not the first to hope you may import the "one fertilized female". I heard this story more than often. And, by the way, one female is not the right way, because forest species often avoid pairing with brothers/sisters. But, how to get more than one? You see, I do not want to discourage anybody, but just to point out some often neglected aspects.

By the way, who has bred Idolomantis yet? I mean raising larvae, pairing, ooth laying and having these ooths hatched? I did, and some others have, too. It should be no more than 5 people.

Importing tons of ooths and letting the larvae hatch is easy. Ever wondered if this species is threatened by these activities? I am curious to see what are the remains of these imports after, say, 2 years. Some guys here seem to feed crickets to them. Considering this, I do not really think it will be a lot...

Regards,

Christian

 

[ellroy]

I completely agree with the sentiments of this thread and it would be a real shame if this species became extinct. However, I'm worried that collecting for the pet trade could have as much of a detrimental effect as deforestation. We don't know the exact size of the wild population and getting a few contacts to collect a few adults or ooths could wipe out a population in one season. Realistically you would need more than one bloodline to have a genetically viable population and at the moment we don't know if the wild population can afford to lose adults or ooths.

Conservation of a species relies on a detailed understanding of the animals life cycle, environmental requirements and behaviour and as far as I can see no one knows that much about these species. What if, in the wild they have a really high mortality rate where you only get 1 or 2 nymphs surviving to adulthood? What if the entire population only produces a handful of ooths in a season? One ooth could represent a huge portion of the adult population.

There could also be serious implications to re-releasing them back into the wild population. What happens if we send them back with some kind of disease or parasite which wipes out the native population? A lot of us have lost captive mantids to unknown causes such as the brown vomit syndrome which we have very little knowledge of, we could unwittiingly spread this to a wild population which has no defence.

I know that hobbyists and captive breeders have made some excellent contributions to the conservation and knowledge of many species of reptiles and amphibians but I feel this is gained from long term experience of a species and involves a great deal of trial and error, a luxury we may not have with this species.

I would love to be involved in trying this species as much as the next man, I just feel we need to wait til we have a better overview of the whole picture before we try our luck......who knows, maybe they aren't as rare as we thought but until we know for sure I reckon they are best left where they are.

I certainly mean no disrepect to anyone elses opinion I just thought that it was worth looking at the wider implications of attempting something like this as a hobby,

cheers

Alan

**Oops....I seem to have posted this just after Christians post, (I didn't see it til after my post went up) I apologise if it repeats stuff and stand corrected on the wild status of the species concerned. Thanks

 

[Johnald Chaffinch]

because there's less of a species than others doesnt have to mean it's anywhere near being annihilated, there might be millions of these things. i have no doubt that in time this species will be bred all over the place just like the others ( especially because it looks cool ) .

(oh and just a note, there's been quite a few species of animal that have been brought back from the edge of extinction with just two remaining members of that species, golden lion tamarin comes to mind )

 

[ellroy]

Hi Johnald,

It would be great if they are not as threatened as I fear and they become readily available. Unfortunately I have seen reports that they are extremely rare in the wild.

I also acknowledge that there are a number of species which have been bought back from the brink but this has been done mainly in zoo's with a great deal of experience with the species, not by plucking the last 2 out of the wild and using trial and error.

I hope that captive efforts will save these species (Toxodera, Paratoxodera and other rare mantids) I just think that conservation has to be based on knowledge rather than luck.

You are right though.....they are very cool looking mantids 8)

cheers

Alan

 

[jandl2204]

I am sure those who have recently posted on this topic will understand that by no means were we talking of doing this off hand, buy just grabbing a few and hoping for the best.

It is obvious that careful consideration must be taken when considering environment, collection, genetic variation, and reintroduction. Take this into account before assuming.

The mantids may not be near dieing out however, sitting back watching it take place would be far worse than starting conservation now.

Zoo's etc do play key roles in conservation, but think of the conservational ability of those on this forum. 5 zoo's say compared to the efforts of 50 separate mantis enthusiasts.

There are some real benefits on such a collective project. Finding a site for reintroduction may be difficult but we can research this.

I imagine that deforestation is taking place as this is one of the countries cash crop’s. Shame.

Regards Lee

 

[ellroy]

Hi Lee,

Don't get me wrong, I fully respect the abilities of many of the forum users. I am the proud owner of a small group of Idolomantis thanks to the skills of hobbyists even though they were considered too challenging to keep for many years.

I agree that sitting back and watching Toxodera/Paratoxodera die out would be awful and I am all for a well planned captive breeding project but there is a big difference between hobbyists and zoo keepers. Zoo's work with their captives on a full time basis, not just when they get in from work or school and they have a lot more resources to invest.

I apologise if you feel I have made assumptions about your intentions, I did assume that people would just try and get a collector or supplier to send some over. If you planning to carry out a long term study in South East asia then I sincerely apologise for jumping the gun.

cheers

Alan

 

[PseudoDave]

Christian, allow me to give my congrats for being 'one of no more than 5' to breed idolo's, however, the reason for this is due to their availability to only people with 'the best contacts', im sorry but it's the only real reason for it. Most people here are seeing Idolomantis for the first time ever, of course they wouldn't have bred them yet, that's just stating the obvious. Perhaps if people weren't so 'selfish' with contact details of breeders/suppliers (come on, we all do it) then there would be more of these particular species in the hobby and thus more chance for breeders who do know their stuff, to do their stuff... I dont know why people think they are 'better' than others at all, if you get the setup correct for a species and you know it's needs, you cannot go wrong, but the only way to learn this, would be to keep them in the first place. As for needing 'zoo sponsorship' etc, that's not true in the slightest. There are many projects around the globe where private groups do their bit for conservation, you need permission to release animals in most places, but certainly not a sponsor if you keep your funding etc sensible. Now, for captive breeding, you're correct, you do need fresh blood quite often but this is no different for any other species of animal in any captive breeding situation such as a zoo, so how do they do it? TRADE...

 

[Ian]

oh dear...looks like I have started a debate I agree totally, we are selfish with our contacts...and if we were to have them spread around, I am almost certain we would find at least 1 other breeder, keeper, of even collector of this this species.

This species is hard to keep? That is word of mouth..until someone has actually tried with the species, they will not know what they are like to keep. But, by doing this, we could be in danger of taking a perfectly healthy specimen, and letting it die.

Cheers,

Ian

 

[Mantis Keeper]

Ok, I agree that we shouldn't just take out a bunch of mantids, pass them around, and say good luck. First we need to do research into where they live and such. You said it's a rainforest right? Well, if someone can walk through, pass within twenty feet of something the size of an elephant and never see it, I suppose there could be large numbers of this mantis. It has terrific camaflauge and a relatively small size compared to say.... an elephant. We need to try and get a group to their native environment for two or three years straight to get population counts, dietary information, and prefered environment (ie higher elevation, lower elevation, near streams or lakes...etc). After this it must be determined how threatend this species is, how many adults could be taken without harming the native population, oh, and whether or not they are even in any danger. If it turns out they are in danger and only a few can be taken the people here who can afford to set up the environment most similiar to their own, the food most similiar to their own, and who has the time to care for them. If they can succesfully breed them then we could begin to expand the species to others who wish to help. This way, we can keep stock seperate so after a few more generations(with imports from the wild when possible) we have a genetically diverse population. We could then reintroduce not nymphs or adults, but ooths into the selected location. This will ensure that the nymphs don't have to adjust to new conditions or travel but are born into their home. This is where a zoo or college sponsorship would help. They could supply the money and gear required to go over and do the preliminary research required. Well, what does everyone think of this plan. I think we could do it. I'm sure someone would fund us.

 

[Christian]

Hi.

I see most people discussing here are not really experienced in conservation issues. Or in determinining what a "hard" species is. There are indeed some, and this is not because noone has tried it. I want to leave it at this point now as I see that my arguments were not really appreciated. Maybe I did not manage to explain it adequately.

So, as a last word I want to say that just a more severe application of the remaining conservation laws already existing in tropical countries will lastly save these and all other species mentioned. A captive population does not. Without natural rainforest all these arguments brought so far are useless.

Regards,

Christian

 

[Ian]

chrisitan, I totally respect your point of view

All I am saying, is there COULD be possibilities around it, no matter how experienced the person.

Cheers,

Ian

 

[PseudoDave]

All arguments are appreciated, passing judgement on peoples experience, knowledge and competence when we dont know them generally isn't.

 

[Mantis Keeper]

So is anyone planning on trying to do something with this species, if not rear at least research them in their natural habitat and try and find some way to do conservation. I plan on trying to do something with this. I have some contacts which may be able to help get some funding for this so that part isn't much of a problem. And Christian, I'm not definately saying we should take them out and try and breed them ourselves, that would just be a bonus to the plan so if you could PM me with all the information you currently have on this species I would be greatful. Anyone who wants to try to work with me and do something please PM with any info or ideas. Thanks all.

 

[shakey]

Hi all,

rather than take any of these from the wild why not all get together and fund say someone like the wwf or even find out about buying large chunks for land like they do in places like Brazil to try and stop the deforestation happening in the first place this way not just protecting one species but protecting lots of species as the research needed could take years together and chances are if its really endangered as your saying by the time the research has been gathered the species be lost if you protect the forests then you protect the species

Just my thoughts

 

[Joe]

I'm going to tiawan hopefully this october or this spring so i'll try to see what i can find . and i'll let you all know what i find too lol

Joe

 

[Ian]

great joe! Good luck, hopefully you will find some nice species.

Cheers,

ian

 

[Samzo]

Cool, Taiwan is famous for animal import and exporting. I saw this documentary and this woman had emperor scorpion adults clinging to her shirt lmao and selling on the street! Very weird place. Take some pics aswell Joe!

 

[Jesse]

Hmmm, interesting thread this has turned into?! I would have to completely agree with Christian. Many mantid taxa such as Miomantis, Hierodula, and Sphodromantis to name a few, have species that can be inbred for many, many generations without any visible negative effects on the captive population, other taxa this is not the case. Releasing cb mantids back to their natural habitat/area also doesn't make sense, because what threatens certain mantids is habitat loss, so where would you be releasing them? somewhere where a strong population already exists? Bottom line is if we want to save species, we need to save their habitats!

 

[ibanez_freak]

Ok,

Well, I'm a noob at all thi kinda stuff, but if the area they are living in is being destroyed, instead of trying to save their home, why not re-locate them? Obviously I have made a suggestion that is almost impossible due to laws about different animals in different homes ruining the environment and how it would take dedictaed people to do this and be able to get great, great numbers of them to release but create a area somewhere else with similar conditions and make sure that the area is protected to avoid having poachers etc. But although this would take years of work, why not?

Any one have any idea what numbers this mantis is down to now approximately?

Cheers, Cameron.

 

[Chris Dickie]

It wouldn't be very easy to re-loate them

fisrtly becaise ecosystems are usually well balanced, introducing a new predator could make other extinct

also the conditions would need to be right for the mantid, I have no idea how widespread this species is, I doubt many/any do so its hard to say whether it would adapt to another environment

also other environment may not provide same food, vitamins, minerals etc which could possibly prove a problem

sorry if this doesn't make sense, lol, reply and I'll reply again (notified of updated topics), I'm on the way to bed and thought I'd quickly include a couple of points