Collecting yesterday with ABbuggin

[MantidLord]

The lack of hybrids points to the fact that they don't seem to be genetically compatible.

Question: How could you tell there are a lack of hybrids? What if they take on the physical traits of one of the species and are able to mate with either one?

 

[Christian]

Because it contradicts the biospecies concept. T. sinensis and T. angustipennis live sympatrically in the natural habitat in Asia where they evolved. If there weren't a genetic barrier they would have merged to one species long ago.

 

[Rick]

Because it contradicts the biospecies concept. T. sinensis and T. angustipennis live sympatrically in the natural habitat in Asia where they evolved. If there weren't a genetic barrier they would have merged to one species long ago.

So T. angustipennis originates from the same area? There doesn't seem to be much information on them. I have been curious about where they came from.

 

[Christian]

They are both occurring in E Asia (China, Japan), with differing abundances in certain regions. At least T. sinensis seems to reach the subtropical regions of SE Asia, where it is replaced by T. aridifolia. In the Asian tropics there are more species. So T. aridifolia, T. sinensis and T. angustipennis seem to have originated through vicariance or reproductive or geographical barriers in different regions and subsequently dispersed and met again, overlapping more or less (data lacking to what extent). At this point, the reproductive barrier was established already.

There were some studies by L. Hurd et al. in Eastern USA, showing that the two species exhibit niche separation strategies: T. angustipennis lives higher in the vegetation, and hatches later. T. sinensis is larger than T. angustipennis and hatches earlier. This allows the nymphs to exploit different prey sizes and T. sinensis to prey on T. angustipennis. However, T. sinensis may hatch too early and die from starvation or late frosts. The situation becomes still more interesting when you add M. religiosa (which lives lower in the vegetation and avoids the other two species) or every other sympatric mantid (the studies dealt only with these three though).

 

[Rick]

They are both occurring in E Asia (China, Japan), with differing abundances in certain regions. At least T. sinensis seems to reach the subtropical regions of SE Asia, where it is replaced by T. aridifolia. In the Asian tropics there are more species. So T. aridifolia, T. sinensis and T. angustipennis seem to have originated through vicariance or reproductive or geographical barriers in different regions and subsequently dispersed and met again, overlapping more or less (data lacking to what extent). At this point, the reproductive barrier was established already.There were some studies by L. Hurd et al. in Eastern USA, showing that the two species exhibit niche separation strategies: T. angustipennis lives higher in the vegetation, and hatches later. T. sinensis is larger than T. angustipennis and hatches earlier. This allows the nymphs to exploit different prey sizes and T. sinensis to prey on T. angustipennis. However, T. sinensis may hatch too early and die from starvation or late frosts. The situation becomes still more interesting when you add M. religiosa (which lives lower in the vegetation and avoids the other two species) or every other sympatric mantid (the studies dealt only with these three though).

Very interesting. Thanks. About them living in different areas of the vegetation, I find both species at all levels. I know they prey on stagmomantis which may explain seeing few of them in the same area.

 

[ismart]

Very interesting. Thanks. About them living in different areas of the vegetation, I find both species at all levels. I know they prey on stagmomantis which may explain seeing few of them in the same area.

Thats rather sad that these two introduced species are displacing/feeding on the native species in the area.

 

[ABbuggin]

Christian, I sent you a PM.

 

[hibiscusmile]

They are both occurring in E Asia (China, Japan), with differing abundances in certain regions. At least T. sinensis seems to reach the subtropical regions of SE Asia, where it is replaced by T. aridifolia. In the Asian tropics there are more species. So T. aridifolia, T. sinensis and T. angustipennis seem to have originated through vicariance or reproductive or geographical barriers in different regions and subsequently dispersed and met again, overlapping more or less (data lacking to what extent). At this point, the reproductive barrier was established already.There were some studies by L. Hurd et al. in Eastern USA, showing that the two species exhibit niche separation strategies: T. angustipennis lives higher in the vegetation, and hatches later. T. sinensis is larger than T. angustipennis and hatches earlier. This allows the nymphs to exploit different prey sizes and T. sinensis to prey on T. angustipennis. However, T. sinensis may hatch too early and die from starvation or late frosts. The situation becomes still more interesting when you add M. religiosa (which lives lower in the vegetation and avoids the other two species) or every other sympatric mantid (the studies dealt only with these three though).

That is what I thought, due to where I find the three different ones I have here on my farm, the M. religiosa always lays ankle height here while the T. Sinensis always lays knee height, rarely ever find either of them on different levels. Thanks for comfirming that!

 

[Christian]

As far as I checked the literature, St. carolina has lower population numbers than the introduced ones, whether they occur in the same area or not. I don't know any case in which a mantid species has extirpated another sympatric one. In tropical savannas there a lot of species coexisting. Even though interspecific predation occurs, with T. sinensis having a size advantage and high abundances, the other species usually will not vanish, but have somewhat lower population sizes. At least I haven't read anything that would point to this yet.

 

[Ntsees]

You got some good pics. The carolina ooths were so thick in areas, it was lie picking grapes! I saw several sticks with two ooths, and some with three!!! :blink: But, they were only like that by the bridge pillars.If anything does come of the chinese x narrow wing, we will find out because I will be saving her ooths.

Like what Rick said, she probably was already mated before with her own species and so her ooths will hatch. To find the real answer though, you'd have to use a non-mated female. But like in most cases, the result may be an infertile ooth. But then again, nature has gray areas and so you don't always know what to expect.

 

[MantidLord]

As far as I checked the literature, St. carolina has lower population numbers than the introduced ones, whether they occur in the same area or not. I don't know any case in which a mantid species has extirpated another sympatric one. In tropical savannas there a lot of species coexisting. Even though interspecific predation occurs, with T. sinensis having a size advantage and high abundances, the other species usually will not vanish, but have somewhat lower population sizes. At least I haven't read anything that would point to this yet.

Very interesting stuff Christian. I read about the whole hatching interval and late frost topic in The Praying Mantids. But are you sure that there was never some hardly documented species of mantis that was wiped out by new comers? Also, could the three Tenedora sp that you mentioned have been a single species but changed due to geographic differences? (true that could be said for a lot of species these days but bare with me).I also had no idea where angustipennis was native too. I read it was native to the states and found no contradicting info on the matter.

 

[Christian]

I read a lot of literature already and never heard of a mantis species wiped out by another. The only species that are endangered are threatened by habitat loss or small distribution areas. Most of those also co-occur with other, larger, species. As I said before, mantids can well coexist in the same habitat. The more species there are, the lower the abundances of individual species. It must be said in this context, that the Nearktis (= N-America) is very empoverished regarding its mantid fauna, that is, it is not as saturated with species as latitude and the climatic conditions would suggest. While most N-American taxa are more diverse than the European counterparts (birds, mammals, reptiles, butterflies, beetles etc.), the situation is reversed in mantids. That's why the 4 new mantid species were able to colonize the N-American continent so fast. As some of the S-American taxa seem to have invaded S-America via N-America, the reasons for the depauperate state isn't to be found in missing chances but rather in extinction events during the Pleistocene and possibly the Pliocene. As a tropical group, mantids do not well with Ice Ages...

Tenodera is a paleotropical group which spread out into the temperate zone of East Asia (not a temperate group as suggested by Hurd et al.). You see this in the fact that T. sinensis doesn't have an obligate diapause: if you keep the ooths warm, they will hatch. Temperate species adjust their diapause via daylight cycle, not temperature.

A speciation event only occurs if a reproductive barrier is established. The nature of this barrier may be diverse. Geographical barriers are the best known ones. T. sinensis, aridifolia and angustipennis are very similar and most probably closely related. If a geographical barrier facilitated speciation, they must have been separated for a long period of time, long enough for reproductive incompatibilities to become established. Subsequent overlap of area wasn't a problem then. It has to be considered that there are several other species known, which may or may not be closely related to one of the three.

 

[ABbuggin]

Thought it woudl be interesting to note that the female Carolina Rick found is filled with parasites. I can see them move around through her abdomen.

 

[Rick]

Thought it woudl be interesting to note that the female Carolina Rick found is filled with parasites. I can see them move around through her abdomen.

I have never found an adult with parasites. Got a pic?

 

[ABbuggin]

I have never found an adult with parasites. Got a pic?

I guess you have now. I have found an infected adult female before (Carolina).

I'll put some up later on today, but they have eaten at her abdomen lining making it somewhat transparent. I can see them move through the lining. :blink:

 

[Matticus]

I guess you have now. I have found an infected adult female before (Carolina).I'll put some up later on today, but they have eaten at her abdomen lining making it somewhat transparent. I can see them move through the lining. :blink:

That is absolutely fascinating.

 

[Rick]

I guess you have now. I have found an infected adult female before (Carolina).I'll put some up later on today, but they have eaten at her abdomen lining making it somewhat transparent. I can see them move through the lining. :blink:

Could add this to the parasite thread. On more than one occasion I have had a situation where I could see through the abdomen in certain areas and see what could be mistaken as something moving inside.

 

[ABbuggin]

I will add the pics to the parasite thread. I am positive that there are maggots inside because I saw them, one almost crawled out. On another account, she is about dead. I would go ahead and kill her, but I am going to wait until the maggots emerge so that I can preserve them and the resulting flies for public display.

 

[MantidLord]

I read a lot of literature already and never heard of a mantis species wiped out by another. The only species that are endangered are threatened by habitat loss or small distribution areas. Most of those also co-occur with other, larger, species. As I said before, mantids can well coexist in the same habitat. The more species there are, the lower the abundances of individual species. It must be said in this context, that the Nearktis (= N-America) is very empoverished regarding its mantid fauna, that is, it is not as saturated with species as latitude and the climatic conditions would suggest. While most N-American taxa are more diverse than the European counterparts (birds, mammals, reptiles, butterflies, beetles etc.), the situation is reversed in mantids. That's why the 4 new mantid species were able to colonize the N-American continent so fast. As some of the S-American taxa seem to have invaded S-America via N-America, the reasons for the depauperate state isn't to be found in missing chances but rather in extinction events during the Pleistocene and possibly the Pliocene. As a tropical group, mantids do not well with Ice Ages...Tenodera is a paleotropical group which spread out into the temperate zone of East Asia (not a temperate group as suggested by Hurd et al.). You see this in the fact that T. sinensis doesn't have an obligate diapause: if you keep the ooths warm, they will hatch. Temperate species adjust their diapause via daylight cycle, not temperature.

A speciation event only occurs if a reproductive barrier is established. The nature of this barrier may be diverse. Geographical barriers are the best known ones. T. sinensis, aridifolia and angustipennis are very similar and most probably closely related. If a geographical barrier facilitated speciation, they must have been separated for a long period of time, long enough for reproductive incompatibilities to become established. Subsequent overlap of area wasn't a problem then. It has to be considered that there are several other species known, which may or may not be closely related to one of the three.

Very fascinating indeed. So if the S. American species "invaded" through N. America, why weren't they able to sustain a population in N. America? Also, you mention that T sinensis doesn't need diapause, so I'm "assuming" that angustipennis and/or aridifolia do. And by several other species, do you mean species in the origin area of those three, or species in the same genus that aren't closely related? One more thing, do you think if speciation did occur, which one (if any of them) would have been the "main" species that the other ones branched off of?

 

[Rick]

Very fascinating indeed. So if the S. American species "invaded" through N. America, why weren't they able to sustain a population in N. America? Also, you mention that T sinensis doesn't need diapause, so I'm "assuming" that angustipennis and/or aridifolia do. And by several other species, do you mean species in the origin area of those three, or species in the same genus that aren't closely related? One more thing, do you think if speciation did occur, which one (if any of them) would have been the "main" species that the other ones branched off of?

I'm incubating a angustipennis ooth without a cold period. Will update this if it hatches.