Dead Ghost Mantis Group Enclosure

[Sarah K]

This morning I found my ghost mantis female dead on the bottom of the group breeding enclosure I made for them. She seems to have some kind of black oily looking liquid around her mouth and other body parts. I noticed her gripping the branch a bit strangely last night. (She was hugging it with her front two grabbing arms, which they usually keep tucked in and don't usually use to keep themselves steady on a branch. 5 hours later she was dead on the ground below where I last saw her perched.  I have so many questions surrounding this death, so I am going to just start listing them here.

1) What is this black stuff anyway? Is the fact that it is all over her a sign that it was definitely a bacterial infection that she had? Or is it a sign of something else completely? See pics below.

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2) Do I have to worry about my other mantises? They seem to be fine at the moment, but I know these things can come on fast. For now I separated them into thier own individual deli cups. But how infectious are bacteria infections between mantises? Can they give each other contagious illnesses just from sharing a cage, like people can give to each other?

3) Could this just be an old injury that got infected? Ever since I got her, her shield has been damaged, and it never completely went away, even after she molted to adulthood.

4) Has anyone else ever had a mantis die with similar symptoms? Did you ever figure out what caused it? Please any advice at all is helpful, I really don't want to lose my other two.
 

 

[MuscleMantis]

the black substance is called the black death. it is caused by bad food, infections, injuries, and many other things. mostly bad food though. it can be cured the first day symptoms show by feeding them honey. after the first day survival rate goes down drastically. if its a food issue the other mantids could be at risk. if you feed crickets they are the leading cause in the black death due to the cricket virus that rampages crickets in pet stores. its suggested to not feed them crickets in almost all the videos i have seen and care sheets. 

im sorry this happened but it was caused from the black death. 

 

[Kermit]

Agreed likely crickets that end up with poor diet. As crickets get older and are not properly fed nutritious food and often no food at all, they eat dead crickets in their enclosure... Those dead crickets have bad, bad bacteria that is a natural bacteria that breaks down dead matter. When other crickets eat them they effectively gut load with bad nasty stuff. A lot of pet stores mismanage their Cricket feeders and customers buy them only to find their pets die shortly after. Often you will see black splattering on the sides of the Mantids enclosure where they get this bad bacteria and attempt to vomitt it out... Honey helps because it has anti bacterial properties. If vomiting is witnessed early and a clean food source is replaced, along with feeding honey (I use a straw and wipe it on their raptors; they will clean it off and effectively eat it) they have a fair chance of making a comeback. If the same food source (bad pet store crickets) are continued to be feed the Mantis will die a certain death!

Crickets are a great feeder if you understand how to gut load them with exceptional nutrition, IE "Cricket Crack" (Google it). Any food left for days in a cricket container can develope mold or bacteria as it spoils and breaks down... That's where you have "black death" waiting to happen. Also allowing the crickets to be cold (no heat source) will cause crickets to get sick. 

I mail order 500 small crickets from a reputable cricket farm ($20 including shipping; save big bucks vs back and forth trips to the over priced black death pet store). Get a inexpensive plastic storage box from home depot with high sides ($10) and a cheap clip on light bulb fixture. Get some Cricket Crack and your set. Feed the crickets day one. Day two take the CC out and skip 2 or 3 days and repeat. You will have super healthy crickets that won't escape, you'll save a ton of $ and time. Keep in garage. Keep egg carton in for crickets to hide. Put cup in and pick up egg carton and tap in enough for 2 -3 crickets per Mantis. Never put too many in Mantis container as left overs will eat others (black death) and high risk of hurting your Mantids if they molt (crickets will eat Mantids after recent molts). 

Sorry for your loss. :mellow:

Now you know and you can avoid next time

 

[CosbyArt]

I'm not so sure if the whole black death thing is the cause here, and crickets get a bad rap even when they are not to blame.

I've noticed many of my dead mantids will usually start to decay within a few hours of death (depending on heat/humidity/and how full of food they are), in which time their insides liquify and turns them a much darker color (black in semi-transparent areas), and it will leak out their openings. In which case it looks like the black death even if its not. I've also had some still alive in that state, so anymore I freeze all my mantids 24+ hours to ensure they are humanely dead.

1- It is a internal liquid - if it was vomit, internal liquified remains, or the black death, it is hard to say. If the substance was a thick goo and had a strong odor, it was the black death.

2- A bacterial infection is passed easily from mantid to mantid, and if your girl had it she would have left small amounts of the liquid on everything she was near. In which case cleaning with a solution of hot soapy water, or a mix of 1 part bleach to 10 parts water, or soak in vinegar overnight - anything that was in the habitat that you will reuse (including the habitat). I recommend you give the remaining mantids honey on a toothpick as a precaution to help them.

3- Perhaps it was due to the injury causing a infection in her that lowered immune system as she had it for quite awhile (much like pneumonia killing humans in a weakened state, especially the elderly). Also even with the best care and with no know issues, mantids can still die naturally at any time. With everything known it was likely a problem from her immune system due to the injury. If you are worried about the crickets, feed them well the next few days and remove any/all dead ones before reusing them as feeders - perhaps going as far as to clean the cricket tank in the same way described in part 2..

4- Indeed anyone who keeps mantids loses some to varied causes (see above for precaution measures). Just like in humans not everyone lives to be 75 years old or whatever, even with proper healthcare. Sadly many times the cause of death isn't fully understood or resolved, and a part of the experience of keeping mantids.

I'm sorry for your loss, and wish you well with your remaining pets.

 

[Sarah K]

Hey all, 

First of all, I really appreciate all of you taking the time to provide me with these very detailed answers and explanations. 

Based on the combination of information you all provided me, you have given me hope for my, remaining mantids! It sounds like I took the right precautions that will give my remaining mantises a good chance for survival.

1)You will be happy to know that I do not feed my mantises crickets very often  at all, and I know for a fact that none of my ghost mantises ate any crickets at all. I only put one cricket in that cage, and it never did get eaten, however, I did find it dead on the bottom of the cage as well. That in itself did put up a bit of a red flag for me though, as I feed solely banded crickets, and it's been my experience that they are extremely hard to kill, so I wondered what could have caused its death.

2) I feed my mamtids blue bottle flies and houseflies for 90% of the time. Based on all the information I have found about crickets carrying bacteria and black death, I am extremely nervous about feeding crickets to my mantids period, and only do it when I am out of flies and waiting for a delivery. I also solely have been buying my fly pupae from Peter (Bugs In Cyberspace), and Carey (mantis pets).

3) I only feed banded crickets that I either buy from Ghann's cricket farm, or breed myself. I feed them only repashy bug burger, and romaine lettace from Giant. 

4) One other note, in addition to house and blue bottle flies, the mantis that died did eat a moth that I caught outside on Monday night, and laid her first infertile ooth on Tuesday.

5) Just as one final precaution I feed each one of my mantises some honey off of a toothpick (including my two remaining ghosts), before I headed out on my roadtrip this weekend (bad timing for mantis drama, as I was scheduled to be out of town this weekend!) My fingers are crossed that when I return to my house Sunday night, everyone will still be alive and well! 

Thanks again to everyone for your detailed explanations, sympathy and encouragement! I will let you know what I discover on Sunday! 

 

[CosbyArt]

1) Crickets get too bad of a rap for sure, and out of the thousands (likely near tens of thousands now) I've used as feeders I can contribute 3 mantid deaths to them, and only 1 for 100% certain as it was too large for my mantid and attacked him. If crickets are given proper care, it should be a non-issue as it sounds like yours would have been. Funny to hear the mantid didn't eat any crickets, as it goes to show it wasn't the cause as I suspected. The likely cause of the cricket's death was either it reached it's 2 week mark the typical lifespan of an adult cricket, or simply got trauma from the other crickets or mantid.

2) PM sent

3) Great link on the cricket farm, too bad I didn't know it a few days ago. As I spent about the same price (actually over) without shipping for 1500 crickets vs the 200 I got locally.

4) Moths are great, and are like a snack food as they tend to be so fatty for them. The only chance the moth could have hurt the mantid is really low, almost nil, as the only way it could happen is if the moth came into contact with a pesticide and was unaffected until it was caught and your mantid ingested it; however, the moth would have done so before it died from the poison. From the countless wild caught flies and moths I've given my mantids I haven't come across any problems. Although a problem can happen. I would suggest if you use pesticides or other chemicals in your yard, or are nearby, avoid wild feeders - otherwise they are a great option.

5) Great to hear, and the mantids love it either way. They should be doing great, let us know Sunday.

 

[Sarah K]

Hey all,

Just wanted to give an update as promised. I came home this evening, and all remaining mantises were still alive and well! Thanks again to everyone for the great  advice!

 

[spider_creations]

hope the rest do okay

 

[CosbyArt]

Hey all,

Just wanted to give an update as promised. I came home this evening, and all remaining mantises were still alive and well! Thanks again to everyone for the great  advice!

Glad to hear they are doing fine. Best of luck to you

 

[Sarah K]

Update:

Regretfully, my other original ghost mantis female is dead now also(exactly a week after the brown one pictured above). She is one of the 2 that were in the group enclosure with the brown one originally. No black oily stuff this time, but I put her in the freezer pretty much as soon as she died also. She was still alive when I woke up this morning, and was dead by the time I went to work. Ironically, she seemed to be following the same pattern as the brown one. Laid an infertile ooth on Tuesday, died on Friday. She has not showed interest in food this week at all, and I have been trying to force feed her honey and flower power almost every night this week. I am completely stumped, very sad, and worried about the other adult ghosts I have again. They seem fine, but multiple deaths in a row make me paranoid and disappointed.

Is it possible this could still be the same thing that affected the brown one above? I thought when I came home on Sunday and everyone was good, it meant we were good to go.

 

[CosbyArt]

Sorry to hear another one died as well. Indeed, it likely is the same thing that affected your brown mantid (if it was a bacterial infection), or perhaps something in their environment.

It may be a bacterial infection, and the only course of treatment is cleaning their habitats and continuing to feed them honey. You can clean using hot soapy water, or a mix of 1 part bleach to 10 parts water, or soak in vinegar overnight - anything that was in the habitat that you will reuse (including the habitat itself).

Hopefully though the honey has already had a affect on your remaining mantids. Sadly only time will tell for sure. The last trick I can pass along is to mist their habitats less for awhile - as excess humidity itself can cause bacteria to breed and flourish (a drier environment will help kill them off).

 

[Sarah K]

Hey Thomas,

Thanks for providing all the continued advice and encouragement. The male that was in with the two females is still hanging on (still seems fine).....so I hope that continues. He has been separated into his own deli cup, and the entire enclosure has been cleaned with a bleach solution. I added completely brand new sticks and fake plants. Now the ghost mantises DeShawn sent have been staying the newly cleaned enclosure, so I am hoping all my mantis woes are over for now. All other mantises seem to be fine, so I am guessing it wasn't related to a food item everyone was getting. But like you said, only time will tell.

I do have positive breeding experience to share with my orchids though! This happened on Saturday, so it makes me encouraged!

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[CosbyArt]

Good to hear about the Ghost male.

Great about your Orchids - hopefully your have more fertile ooths than you know what to do with. The dimorphism between the Orchids is still amazing, and comical.

 

[hibiscusmile]

I always clean with bleach, washes off good, no problems from using it.