First Adult

[DefyTheNorms]

So I'm mantis mom to my first adult! My Creobroter Gemmatus molted this evening and surprised me with wings!  She was so tiny that I didn't even realize that she was at subadult. This is only her 3rd molt with me and I swear she was the size of a large mosquito when I got her. She just had a molt 3 weeks ao and was NOT expecting this - tho I'm happy!  I had 2 other mantises longer and they've had more molts and still aren't adults, so it caught me off guard. The other reason I wasn't expecting adult molt so soon is she's super small! Well, I say she, but being as small as she was she was hard to sex. I swear I could only count 6 segments, but considering the size she is now at adult I'm thinking now she is possibly a he! From what I understand females are 4cm while males are 3cm. He/She is only pushing 3cm. I was not expecting such a tiny adult. I just loves him/her. 

 

[Okoboji22]

Congratulations on your first adult! If she’s a he, prepare for alot of flying. The creo male I had was a great flyer. I’m not sure if this is the case, but I’ve seen a couple members on here who have had midget mantises who skip a molt or 2 and become tiny versions of regular adults. If your mantis is a female then maybe you have a midget mantis on your hands! However don’t take my word for it as I don’t know much about too much about creos.

 

[CosbyArt]

@DefyTheNorms Nice surprise. Looks like the wings do not have any issues, and should dry nicely, congrats.

If size is an issue in counting segments try a magnifying glass to see them. I sometimes use a 30x jewelers loop (from my metal detecting and Numismatics days) that has been pretty handy with mantids and insects.

If your mantid is the same size for adult males, it is likely a male that is simply a later instar than thought/labelled, extremely common issue.

I’m not sure if this is the case, but I’ve seen a couple members on here who have had midget mantises who skip a molt or 2 and become tiny versions of regular adults. If your mantis is a female then maybe you have a midget mantis on your hands! However don’t take my word for it as I don’t know much about too much about creos.

With any species rarely some nymphs have been said to skip a single molt to adulthood, but skipping several molts is even more so. Another rare occurrence is a so called "runt" that can be much smaller than normal size, due to environmental conditions or possibly an internal issue, but has nothing to do with molts.

Most related posts I've read are from miscounted molts, everyone does it myself included, and buyers are often told the wrong instar when purchased to add to the mix-up. Also many species have different amounts of instars listed for the same species until adulthood (including different instars based on gender) found in posts/caresheets/online - see here for an example in the Development section. In the same regard as runts not all mantid individuals reach the absolute maximum size of the given species normally, so possibly more confusion. Honestly it is surprising there are not more posts about the instar/molt/size issues.

A verified instance of adequate size fluctuation for evidence of missing molts/runt, such as with a ruler along with the adult mantid clearly photographed showing abdominal segments for gender in a single photo for proof (heck even multiple photos which could invalidate any evidence), is as rare as hens teeth. Sure it happens, but 99% of the time it is misinformation somewhere in the process.

See below for some such discussions...

 

[DefyTheNorms]

If size is an issue in counting segments try a magnifying glass to see them. I sometimes use a 30x jewelers loop (from my metal detecting and Numismatics days) that has been pretty handy with mantids and insects.

If your mantid is the same size for adult males, it is likely a male that is simply a later instar than thought/labelled, extremely common issue.

Yeah, I likely miscounted segments, and obviously she/he was much older than an L2. I need to get one of these jewelers loops. I almost did a while back. I was relying on my camera to zoom in on photos. Pics below are the ones that I only counted 6 segments in. I was certain it was a female! I can count, but sexing mantids is much more difficult than I imagined lol. If it's a male, he's stuck with a female name because I'm so used to calling him/her Cercei   Also, I just noticed the tiny wings! I was so caught up in segment counting that I didn't even pay attention to the wing area! Duh!  :blink:

 

[CosbyArt]

Yeah, I likely miscounted segments, and obviously she/he was much older than an L2. I need to get one of these jewelers loops. I almost did a while back. I was relying on my camera to zoom in on photos. Pics below are the ones that I only counted 6 segments in. I was certain it was a female! I can count, but sexing mantids is much more difficult than I imagined lol. If it's a male, he's stuck with a female name because I'm so used to calling him/her Cercei   Also, I just noticed the tiny wings! I was so caught up in segment counting that I didn't even pay attention to the wing area! Duh!  :blink:

Nah I'd have to agree at least with those pictures that is female. :wacko: Depending on where you start the count there are 5 or 6 segments, female. And going by the size and shape of the last segment (large), female again.

Indeed wing buds of that size are subadult with one last molt left. That seems to nearly lay the molting issue to rest; however, the size is still a mild concern.

The problem is though the difference is only 1cm (0.4" - less than half an inch) between genders if she reached maximum size (and if you are get a accurate measurement). That is 3cm (1.18") for a male, and 4cm (1.57") for female.

You would have to get her to lay flat as possible on a ruler to measure her size from abdomen tip to her mouth maxillary palp area to get a accurate measurement. In such a tiny living mantid size, besides your girl being extremely cooperative, you would have to see the measurement on a good flat ruler for likely a 0.2" difference.

Personally for the observable 0.5 - 1cm (0.2" - 0.4") difference between genders I think it would be little more than splitting hairs for the effort. If anything call her petite, but in reality a perfectly sized individual. I know for my even smaller Acromantis japonica boxers I didn't bother with a micrometer or digital calipers.

Although I'd love to see a new photo, like either photo 1 or 3 above, from the side to confirm gender at this point.

 

[DefyTheNorms]

Nah I'd have to agree at least with those pictures that is female. :wacko: Depending on where you start the count there are 5 or 6 segments, female. And going by the size and shape of the last segment (large), female again.

Although I'd love to see a new photo, like either photo 1 or 3 above, from the side to confirm gender at this point.

That was my conclusion :/ Weird.  I'll try to get more photos later, tho I have to admit, I'm nervous taking her out now since she can fly! I'm afraid I'd lose her, she's so tiny! 

however, the size is still a mild concern.

Meaning there could be something wrong with her? She's definitely doesn't look 4cm when I compare her to the mark on the measuring tape.

This is a current photo of her. Her wings really darkened! Is it normal for her to still have them flared out like that? Not sure how long they take to dry. She molted late last night. Hope she doesn't have wing issues.

 

[CosbyArt]

That was my conclusion :/ Weird.  I'll try to get more photos later, tho I have to admit, I'm nervous taking her out now since she can fly! I'm afraid I'd lose her, she's so tiny! 

Meaning there could be something wrong with her? She's definitely doesn't look 4cm when I compare her to the mark on the measuring tape.

This is a current photo of her. Her wings really darkened! Is it normal for her to still have them flared out like that? Not sure how long they take to dry. She molted late last night. Hope she doesn't have wing issues.

Ok, no problem. Most mantid species females rarely fly, and any flying tends to land them on curtains. I've had both genders in many species that never bothered to fly more than gliding a foot at most, if it ever used their wings. Then I've had others that like to put on a show and can fly 10 seconds or so in one go. Once you get over the shock it can be rather entertaining.

No nothing is wrong with her, I was just referring to the chance of her being smaller than normal.

Normal darkening for sure, for the flaring only time will tell. After the final molt many flare the wings until completely dry so you may not know for 24 hours if they can be folded properly or not. Even if there are wing issues for any captive mantid it is purely cosmetic and does not affect mating, mobility, feeding, etc. There is no use for wings in habitats besides the deimatic behavior (threat displays).

 

[DefyTheNorms]

@CosbyArt Awesome! 

 

[DefyTheNorms]

Look how tiny she is!  And I have small hands.

 

[Bathory]

Ohh what a small baby, congrats!

 

[DefyTheNorms]

Ohh what a small baby, congrats!

Thank you!

 

[CosbyArt]

@DefyTheNorms Yes a 1 - 1.5" species is tiny, but nice to see. Just makes me miss my smaller mantid species more though.

 

[Ocelotbren]

Congrats on the new adult!  I had a similar experience with my first ghost to reach adulthood.  I wasn't expecting her to molt as soon as she did, and I was definitely not expecting her to have wings!  As it turns out, I had put them all at an instar behind what they actually were.  Very surprising indeed.

 

[DefyTheNorms]

Congrats on the new adult!  I had a similar experience with my first ghost to reach adulthood.  I wasn't expecting her to molt as soon as she did, and I was definitely not expecting her to have wings!  As it turns out, I had put them all at an instar behind what they actually were.  Very surprising indeed.

I put her like multiple instars behind! lol.. I thought I bought an L2, but she became adult her 3 molt with me! 

 

[Ocelotbren]

@DefyTheNorms Haha an even bigger surprise, ironically!

 

[DefyTheNorms]

Does she still look female? I couldn't get a good side photo because of her wings.

 

[Ocelotbren]

Yeah looks female.  I find it helps make the abdomen sections easier to see and count if I shine a flashlight on the abdomen so that it creates shadows on the ridges between the abdomen sections.  It just makes each segment more defined.  Hope it helps!

 

[DefyTheNorms]

Yeah looks female.  I find it helps make the abdomen sections easier to see and count if I shine a flashlight on the abdomen so that it creates shadows on the ridges between the abdomen sections.  It just makes each segment more defined.  Hope it helps!

Great, thanks! I thought female too. I guess she's just "petite" for a girl. I'll double check with the flashlight as you suggested.

 

[CosbyArt]

Does she still look female? I couldn't get a good side photo because of her wings.

Really hard to count segments in the photo due to the blur/resolution.

I downloaded the photo and tried various things color levels, contrast, lines across the outside segments, etc. In the end nothing seemed to work - the best was to look for the half-circle shadow impressions near the middle. Looking at it that way there are 5 segments, the one in red shows the variation in segment counting, if the segment that meets the leg overlap is counted or not (see the 2nd photo here for a clear example).

I still say female, however I can't say I'm 100% based from the image.