Help! What is my mated girl oozing?

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It's unfortunate, but sometimes these things just happen.
Like humans, mantises and other organisms can end up with health problems and there was unfortunately nothing you could have done to save her once she had her prolapse. It may have been a result of her poor start, but it's just as likely it was just something that ended up happening for no particular reason.

 
I'm sorry for your loss.

Looking at some of the other experiences people have had, it seems I might have been very lucky with my boy who had this happen yet still managed to live a long life.. I wouldn't beat yourself up about this. Considering two of us have had this happen with male mantises that don't get heavy like females, I don't think weight was the issue.

 
Ranitomeya, I always enjoy your answers (to everyone, not just me.) I just have to ask...are you an entomologist? It seems I'm always getting educated because I have to look up your technically correct terms. Keep it up :smarty:

 
You could bury her somewhere. I put mine in my garden or in the soild of the mantis's favorite potted plant.

 
I majored in zoology at SFSU for my undergrad where I took and thoroughly enjoyed a general entomology course, but I am by no means anywhere near an expert on any of the subjects I learned. I frequently forget terms and concepts and end up having to look them up on the internet or a textbook, but it helps having some basic knowledge on the topic as a starting point for my search.

 
OMG! I thought my Hierodula female, 32 days old and quite heavy, was going to lay an ooth today as she was really checking out her branches. Nope. Instead I returned tonight to see that she has the beginnings of a prolapsed anus! I won't feed her for a few days and hope it will retract and I will mist her a few times a day but at what point do I worry about her getting egg bound? (She is not mated as my male just had his final molt 2 days ago.) If she is egg bound, will trying to lay an ooth make her anus worse? Is it as hard laying eggs as it is to have a baby---I sure hope not! Would a warm sits bath help?

I just can't believe this is happening to another beautiful girl! (Two days ago my Budwing layed a huge infertile ooth and is starting to fatten up again---no problems.)

Are prolapsed anuses really that common? I'm two for three at the moment with three more adult females gearing up. I don't know how to prevent this from happening. I guess I don't know the difference between fat or full of eggs!

 
No, trying to lay eggs will not make a prolapsed anus worse since they do not share the same plumbing.

Prolapses shouldn't be common, and I'm not sure what would cause it in insects. It may be diet-related, but that's just a guess. I personally have not seen prolapses in mantises in my collection.

 
Thanks, Ranitomeya,

Jasmine's diet is varied eating mostly BB flies with crickets, waxworms, mealworms and dubia roaches switched in. She is a good eater.

Yeah, I now recognize the basic body parts, thanks. I just thought if they have to push out the eggs, it would also expel more of the anus. Maybe there is no pushing involved? So far she has passed three large frass today (she has always had larger-than-life frass) and still only two little bubbles of anus are out. Earlier this morning, I thought it had gone back inside but as soon as she moved--she was looking for food as always--it reappeared and still out tonight.

About possibly being egg bound, I read on the forum that someone put their mantis in a warm bath (was it Gizmo?) and within a few days she layed an ooth. I wonder if it was just a coincidence or if it would help?

For such a big girl, Jasmine is so beautiful and sweet and always fun to have out. I hope it doesn't worsen.

Shocking news --- I found my male ghost, Casper, on his back and very dead at the age of 41 days this afternoon! All I can figure out is when I opened his container yesterday, he burst out and did a lot of fluttering and bouncing all over the stuff on my table and maybe he hurt himself. He did eat a mealworm after his adventures and was calm when I put him in the container. A puzzle.

 
It's not as much the pushing that causes prolapse, and more the weakening of the muscles keeping everything inside. Most insects are more likely to burst from the side of the abdomen than end up with a prolapse if you tried squeezing them.

There's a chance that you're very unlucky and just happened to get two mantises that had a genetic disposition towards health problems such as prolapses.

 
For sure I will not be pressing her abdomen! Yuk!

About the timing for laying an ooth, my unmated Budwing did at 30 days. Is this about typical? Do unmated females (in this case Hierodula) wait as long as they can hoping for a mating before laying? Does the length of time vary by species?

I just have so many questions about what to do that is best for her.

Meanwhile, I'm giving honey and water but no food (two days) to lighten her abdomen load a bit. She looks the same today and passing more frass but I guess the anus is staying out.

 
In the past, I've had two male Rhombodera stalii get severe prolapse. Their internal organs suddenly came out, like a big green glob, similar to the picture in the first post. And one of them somehow damaged one of their prolapsed organs, and it started leaking tons of green blood. The males did survive for another month or so, the prolapsed organs started moving back inside. I was pretty surprised - I didn't do anything specific, and honestly wasn't expecting them to live for more than a few days, given the severity of their symptoms. I'd say, to date, it's still the most disturbing thing I've ever witnessed while raising mantises.

Deacon, I have noticed that unmated females would delay laying ooths as long as they could. Last years, I ran out of males, but I had one remaining Hierodula female. She took a very long time to lay her first ooth, I think it was almost 1.5 months, or almost 2 months. But I've had other unmated females readily lay ooths, usually the smaller species that like to lay ooths frequently.

 
PlayingMantis,

Thank you for sharing your experiences. I'm sorry you had to go through it, too! And yours were males, so like Ranitomeya says, it's unrelated to being heavy with eggs. But, were your males heavy? I just feel guilty that in my ignorance, I let my girls maybe get too fat (when I thought they were getting ready for ooth laying). Everything I've read says feed them and they'll lay bigger, better ooths!

My Hierodula's anus seems to be holding at two tiny bubbles and she is passing frass. I am feeding her flies now--no dubias. At 36 days, she and the six day-old male are just gawking at each other from their containers. I'm giving him another week to mature, let them be mantids, and hope for the best for her.

Aside from them, I also have Double Shields (she is only 10 days-old but he is a month old and literally clawing at his container to try to get to her!) She must be airing pheromones already considering his interest.

My Budwing female is fattening up again after her huge infertile ooth. I do have a teeny male---they are both 38 days-old--- but I'm not seeing any interest from either of them. I see mating them as the death of him.

The Chinese mantids (first post) were my first mantids and although I mated them, they both died before any ooth was laid. She made it a month before her anus turned black and died and he passed two weeks later. So, I have very little experience with mating mantids. I just know that my bug room must be heavy with pheromones right now and I'm glad I can't smell them!

What's your experience with mating mantids? I don't want the ooths as I'd rather buy nymphs from someone who want to hatch them but at the same time I'm thinking I should allow the mantids to go through a natural life cycle... Thoughts? Opinions?

 
PlayingMantis,

Thank you for sharing your experiences. I'm sorry you had to go through it, too! And yours were males, so like Ranitomeya says, it's unrelated to being heavy with eggs. But, were your males heavy? I just feel guilty that in my ignorance, I let my girls maybe get too fat (when I thought they were getting ready for ooth laying). Everything I've read says feed them and they'll lay bigger, better ooths!

My Hierodula's anus seems to be holding at two tiny bubbles and she is passing frass. I am feeding her flies now--no dubias. At 36 days, she and the six day-old male are just gawking at each other from their containers. I'm giving him another week to mature, let them be mantids, and hope for the best for her.

Aside from them, I also have Double Shields (she is only 10 days-old but he is a month old and literally clawing at his container to try to get to her!) She must be airing pheromones already considering his interest.

My Budwing female is fattening up again after her huge infertile ooth. I do have a teeny male---they are both 38 days-old--- but I'm not seeing any interest from either of them. I see mating them as the death of him.

The Chinese mantids (first post) were my first mantids and although I mated them, they both died before any ooth was laid. She made it a month before her anus turned black and died and he passed two weeks later. So, I have very little experience with mating mantids. I just know that my bug room must be heavy with pheromones right now and I'm glad I can't smell them!

What's your experience with mating mantids? I don't want the ooths as I'd rather buy nymphs from someone who want to hatch them but at the same time I'm thinking I should allow the mantids to go through a natural life cycle... Thoughts? Opinions?
Deacon,

No problem! My male rhombos were kept full, but not overly full. I fatten my girls up a lot, and sometimes I fear they'd eat too much!

Sorry to hear about your hierodula. I hope she is still able to be mated, and eat normally.

I didn't have any luck with double shields until the females were 4 weeks ago, but you could try at 3 weeks. They are really agressive, so be careful.

You could try mating the budwings, but be sure to keep a close eye on them. Sometimes it helps to raise the temperature by a couple of degrees, and/or to use a fan and blow air on them, to coax them "into the mood."

And about your Chinese mantises - I had the exact same issue with Rhombo stalli early last year. The mated female stopped exuding a nasty black substance from her butt and she eventually started turning black so I had to freeze her. :(

Well, I mean, mating mantises depends partly on luck, partly on skill (reading the mantis' body language, creating the best mating environment, etc). Honestly, I feel sometimes it's more due to luck! I have trouble mating ghosts, or rather, getting mated ghosts to lay fertile ooths, and to this day, I still haven't successfully bred ghosts. But with violins - which are supposed to be a tricky mantis - I placed the male with the female, forgot to place them outside, where it was warm (close to 95 degrees at the time), and came home to find that the pair had connected at 80F room temp. And with orchids, I've had females refuse to be mated, mated females that got eggbound, mated females that laid ooths but the ooths turned out infertile. Luckily, I had 8 mated orchid females and 3 laid fertile, hatching ooths. I gave them all the same care. I guess that boils down to luck.

So just try your best, don't be discouraged. And it helps to have multiple pairs, and more males than females - if something goes wrong, you have additional pairs as backup.

 
Here is an update on what was Jasmine's tiny anus prolapse. Today it got huge by comparison.  I'm not even sure it is the anus or if it is something beyond it.  All I know is I have the ziploc ready.  Right now she seems unaffected but it looks terrible!
IMG_0623MA30199183-0005_zpsbuf1qyyt.jpg


FullSizeRenderMA30198982-0002_zpsd1llwbc3.jpg


Photo is terrible, but I think you get the picture...Poor girl!

 
PlayingMantis,

Of my mantid pairings, the Budwing has already layed two inf. ooths and she is fattening up again but her male has never shown an interest.  The Hierodula now has this giant prolapse and her male has ignored her anyway---he just wants in the Popa spurca tank!  The Dbl shield male was finally crowding the separating partition and she layed an infertile ooth a few hours ago.  I have two pairs of Popa Spurca in a tank and if they should hook up and lay a fertile ooth (and I find it) I won't hatch it.  That leaves my Sphodromantids who will possibly molt to adult within a week.  

I have to say it was a pleasure of watching my Dbl shield lay a huge infertile ooth today (33 days-old).  That is an impressive project, sight-unseen!  I'm only about nine months into mantids and I don't feel I'm ready for hatching fertile ooths.  There are too many requirements, like humidity and heat---can't provide that heat.  So, my 13 mantids will probably die as spinsters and bachelors this go round.

My Hierodula, Jasmine, is the same today.  I plan on watching her for a few days to see how soon this will affect her.  So far, she seems to love being in the plant and appears oblivious that her insides are outside (I wonder what kind of nervous system they have and if they actually feel pain.) Such a sweetheart.

 
I had this happen to a male budwing... Blue-green goo. Prevented him from mating. Died prematurely. Not sure what causes this but after much research I found it does not typically lead to a good outcome. Sorry for your troubles :(

 
Kermit, I am prepared for the  worst.  Jasmine is still holding her own but I think her outside/insides look smaller, probably starting to dry out. :(

Playingmantis, what does a egg-bound mantis look like?  Does she go from round and full to something else? I ask because Jasmine is still very full but looking sort of lumpy at 61 days-old.   Even if she lives on for a while, I wouldn't breed her because I think mating a physically defective mantid would be dumb on my part.  I would have loved to pass on her sweet disposition though!

Update:2/25 Day 62---Big change overnite: Jasmine's strength was gone this morning so I said goodbye :angel:

 
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Sadness! Im sorry she is gone. 

I just have to ask, first is there any way to push the prolapse back in a two, would putting baby oil or vaseline on it help to keep it from drying out?

 
Sticky,

Wow!  I never thought of doing either of those things.  Maybe the Vaseline would have helped if she would have let me.  When the prolapse was very small it might have worked.  Of all the threads on prolapsed anuses, no one ever said they tried pushing them back inside  Ranitomeya said it was a weakened area that just fails so maybe it would have just fallen out again...especially if it was slick with lubrication.  If it went back in, I wonder about infection.  

I've now had two females full of eggs have this and succumb to it.  If I get another mantis with this problem (since I know it kills them anyway) I think I would try putting the lubricant on my finger tip and pushing on the protrusion.  However, I'm hoping I never see another one!  :(

 
OMG!  I hoped I'd never have another post here!  My 72 day-old Budwing  who has layed two infertile ooths is beginning an anal prolapse.  She seems to be fattening up for another ooth I thought. A few days ago I had moved her to a different section of my aquarium set-ups so she wouldn't be way down at the end.  I transferred her "ooth" stick with her but she just never settled down so after three days, I moved her to her original chamber. Had her out today to visit and there were the tiny green bubbles encircling the anus. :huh:  Maybe I stressed her with the move 'cause she was doing really well until then.

Sticky suggested maybe trying to push the prolapse back in with a bit of Vaseline.  Anybody ever tried this?  Would it lead to infection if it did go in or simply slide back out 'cause it would be slick and the reason it fell out is still there?

Wonder too if I caused it because I flicked a moistened bit of ooth material off her fanny after her first ooth?  I'm not touching my Dbl Shield who still has a ring of ooth stuff eleven days after laying her ooth!  I'm just so bummed!

 

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