Help! What is my mated girl oozing?

[CosbyArt]

Very strange, once or twice perhaps random, more than that I have to wonder. I'll admit I have never had the issue with any mantids I've had, so I'm not sure what the cause could be.

Also vaseline is a petroleum product, and it's hard to say what the chemicals may do to a insect especially their exposed organs (perhaps nothing, but I'd think twice as it would likely eat/clean some of it off itself). I've heard of honey being used on openings/cuts, but honey does crystallize so I am not sure of it either. I personally would aloe vera, squeezed from fat leaf (we keep the plants). I do agree keeping it moist is a great idea.

Pushing the prolapsed anus/organs/internal walls/whatever inside sound good, but I would worry about further damage (such as piercing something in the process (as it is so small and thin, or twisting it internally - which would lead to their death).

Not much to go on, but I would keep it moist and if the mantid weakens or gets worse, trying to push the prolapse back inside would be worth trying (as it wouldn't hurt much if something happened anyway).

Best of luck, and sorry to hear your having trouble with your pets Nancy. Sadly when they get sick there is little we can do.

 

[Deacon]

Yeah, my first two females with prolapses had their lives quite shortened; Hierodula was 62 days (no ooth) enduring two weeks with horrible prolapse; Tenodera was about nine weeks old, no ooth, with one month in prolapse.  My Budwing's prolapse is still very minor as they go. She was 70 days-old when it prolapsed five days ago (she has layed two infertile ooths). 

 I will get an Aloe vera plant today. That's a good one to have in any event   It does sound like the mildest topical I could try.  Thanks for the idea on that. Her green bubbles are very tiny at this point so I'm not touching it.

I'm wondering if it could be dehydration...I'm aware I don't actually offer them drinks regularly now that they are done molting although their enclosures are lightly misted daily and I see them licking moisture off their arms.  As nymphs, I gave them honey and water daily. Wouldn't hurt to get back into that action with all of them.  Don't know why I stopped.  I have four other adult females that are fine so far, KOW.

 

[Krissim Klaw]

It is strange you are running into this issue so routinely. What does your feeding schedule look like for your girls as far as frequency and amount of food?

 

[Deacon]

Krissim Klaw,

Typically, I usually get to my mantids about 8 AM to uncover their aquariums and turn on the white lights (heat lamps are on all night) , mist lightly, then get back to feed mid-morning.  Every other day, I give BB flies to everyone (some eat them, others don't (mainly the boys but sometimes one of the girls don't eat either, usually the Ghost).  So, the next day ,when I open their lids, all the uneaten flies head into the skylight above my table and then I'll offer a variety, like superworms, crickets, dubia, wax worms.  If someone doesn't grab the first thing, I'll offer one other thing, usually samaller in size.  If they are really batting or backing away, I leave them alone until the next day.  I don't get everyone out every day as there is only time to do face-to-face with about three of 'em.  Night temp drops to 72-73 and day time is like 77-78.

Her prolapse is growing (still at the bubble stage) and I did try Aloe Vera tonight as CosbyArt suggested.  She came out tonight (too busy a day so I got to them really late) and she consumed half a large superworm while I held it.  She has been off her food the last few days and 20 days since she layed the second ooth.

I got all fourteen mantids to adult this time and was so happy.  Not so happy now.  Others on the forum have had males prolapse but with me it's just been females.  I have five other healthy females at the moment.  I just don't know why this is happening.

 

[CosbyArt]

I did some digging into cause of a prolapse in humans at least, as there is of course not much medical data for insects (and less for a specific species, such as mantids, and then specific concerns such as a prolapse). Here are the most common reasons for it in humans...

• Advanced age
  
• Long-term constipation
  
• Long-term diarrhea
  
• Long-term straining during defecation
  
• Pregnancy and the stresses of childbirth
  
• Previous surgery
  
• Cystic fibrosis
  
• Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease
  
• Whooping cough
  
• Multiple sclerosis
  
• Paralysis (Paraplegia)
  

Sources for that is available from the Mayo Clinic, and a another health site here.

As you can see some of them could easily apply to mantids, and some will not. That said it appears the most likely cause for a mantid would be related to their feeding (with secondary causes such as their age (as an adult means their lifespan is more than half/or more over) and their breeding/laying ooths). Looking at it that way it means that the mantids have likely been feed too much, and as the Budwing aged and started laying infertile ooths the prolapse took place.

A easy indicator to test this would be for you to take photos of your mantids from the sides so it would let us clearly see their abdomens. In the photos list their *** male/female and when they laid their last ootheca. Sadly, it seems the likely cause is overfeeding. If it is, however, that will be a easy fix to prevent further problems and more prolapses.

 

[Deacon]

And yet, everyone on the forum says it is unlikely that a mantid will over-eat (other than the Popas which I only offer food every other day) and you have said you give your females six BB flies a day when they are at the ooth-laying stage.Freda doesn't eat that much.  If I drop too many flies in her section, they just fly out the next morning when I open her lid.

The Budwing is a tubby right now as she is 21 days since her second ooth (which was layed 22 days after her first one).  Post ooth, she has gotten almost skinny and acts exhausted for a few days.  Plus, she lays these huge ooths that she can hardly stand over!  I find it difficult to judge fat versus full of eggs and ooth-building matter. She hasn't eaten much for the last week, little pieces of superworms, an occasional fly---nothing big like a cricket or dubia and I haven't tried to force her to eat.  If she bats her arms at me, I leave her alone. Yet she is burgeoning right now.  It must be the up-coming ooth, wouldn't you think?

Even the female Ghost, who is 65 days-old (mate keeled over one night) and has not layed an ooth, hardly eats, yet she is getting more rotund by the day.  They just look "pregnant" to me!

Here she is after her last ooth. And today, pre-ooth and with prolapse.

 

[Krissim Klaw]

I will say in that last photo she looks pretty huge to me. I however am not going to be the best judge. I am guessing I feed my adult females lighter than 99% of the people that frequent this board, so it would be interesting to hear from other heavy feeders if they ever run into this problem. Since I'm not concerned about oothecae size I don't mind smaller more infrequent oothecae if it means my girls have an easier time getting around. I almost never hit the point where my females get so full they will turn down food.

As I mentioned before, I've only seen this problem once and it was on a male who otherwise lived a normal life even with the issue. Up until this thread I had never heard of anyone else having the same issue.

 

[Deacon]

I suppose I could treat all of them like the Popas and only offer food every other day and only give honey and water on the non food day. The Budwing, with her little short wings does look huge---she is heavy in my hand.  I hope she lays an ooth soon and I'll try a different feeding schedule. ( But, like I said, the Ghost is barely eating and yet she fattens daily now.)

On top of everything else, Freda actually fell this morning while I was watching her.  She was trying to move from the mesh lid to her big ooth sticks and took a full 12"  belly flop onto the thick coco fiber base.  It is fairly deep and fluffy so she really had to struggle trying to get back on her legs.  I finally gave her a hand.  She seems fine tonight.

So, what kind of feeding routine do you have for your adult females, if I could ask?

 

[CosbyArt]

And yet, everyone on the forum says it is unlikely that a mantid will over-eat (other than the Popas which I only offer food every other day) and you have said you give your females six BB flies a day when they are at the ooth-laying stage.Freda doesn't eat that much.  If I drop too many flies in her section, they just fly out the next morning when I open her lid.

The Budwing is a tubby right now as she is 21 days since her second ooth (which was layed 22 days after her first one).  Post ooth, she has gotten almost skinny and acts exhausted for a few days.  Plus, she lays these huge ooths that she can hardly stand over!  I find it difficult to judge fat versus full of eggs and ooth-building matter. She hasn't eaten much for the last week, little pieces of superworms, an occasional fly---nothing big like a cricket or dubia and I haven't tried to force her to eat.  If she bats her arms at me, I leave her alone. Yet she is burgeoning right now.  It must be the up-coming ooth, wouldn't you think?

Even the female Ghost, who is 65 days-old (mate keeled over one night) and has not layed an ooth, hardly eats, yet she is getting more rotund by the day.  They just look "pregnant" to me!

Here she is after her last ooth. And today, pre-ooth and with prolapse.

I put together a pictorial diagram of mantids based on their feeder intake (took awhile to find the photos and I drew it as well for clarification). The photo of my gravid Stagmomantis carolina in that image laid her ooth later that day when the photo was taken, and as you can see she was nowhere near as large or round as yours (and she was my largest in girth).

Perhaps they are not eating many flies as they are unable to catch them as they are so large? I tend to fed my mantids every couple of days anymore, and they receive two medium crickets (1/2" to 3/4"). In the warmer months I do feed them bottle flies; however, they are only fed those flies and then typically 2-3 days pass before I feed them anything else. More than time I go by their abdomen girth to ensure each is receiving the proper amount of food.

I can tell you love your pets, and I mean no disrespect; however, if your mantids are that round (ooth or not) they are fed too much. You should cut down their amount of feeders, or how often they are fed.

The forum resized the image really small - for a full-size/print version view it here.

View attachment 7102

 

[Krissim Klaw]

On average I only feed adult females every other day. Sometimes I might feed sooner or wait longer though depending on what they have eaten recently. Generally even when offering them smaller prey I don't double up on prey items in one sitting. I rather feed more often then have them engorge themselves in one sitting as their body can only process so much food at once anyways. They do still put on weight but it tends to be more gradual and even at their heaviest less extreme.

 

[Deacon]

Thomas and Krissim Klaw,

Many thanks!  Thomas, the diagrams and photos have helped me immensely (they have the same pictures at the vet showing cat and dog bodies in varies degrees of starving to obese).  These are excellent and I really appreciate the time you took to set them in front of me.  I'm going to try printing it so it is in my face on a daily basis! 

I am definitely going to stop the daily feedings!  Why have I been working so hard?  Apparently, mantids will over-eat!

I just noticed that the Budwing doesn't have that side slit but most of the other girls do.  My boys are skinny.

Again, thanks so much, both of you! I really appreciate your help 'cause it is deflating to have this happening.

Nancy 

 

[Deacon]

Thomas, I guess I should have asked if I could print off your diagram since you did ALL the work?  Do you mind?

I do have a question.  Looking at my Freda in her post-ooth photo, by your diagram, she is still plump then? She has not stopped wandering for the last two hours---I hope she's looking for an ooth spot.  Her first one was in the lid of her plastic container.  The second one in the aquarium was on this double twisted stick.  She's been on it twice and left it---I think I rotated it wrong from last time so I need to find a photo.

Anyway, it is a wonderful thing that you did for me (and anyone else should they need it).  It's great having you back.  Missed you!

Nancy

 

[CosbyArt]

If anyone has any ideas or suggestions for the pictorial chart I made let me know. I'm open to suggestion.

Thomas, I guess I should have asked if I could print off your diagram since you did ALL the work?  Do you mind?

I do have a question.  Looking at my Freda in her post-ooth photo, by your diagram, she is still plump then? She has not stopped wandering for the last two hours---I hope she's looking for an ooth spot.  Her first one was in the lid of her plastic container.  The second one in the aquarium was on this double twisted stick.  She's been on it twice and left it---I think I rotated it wrong from last time so I need to find a photo.

Anyway, it is a wonderful thing that you did for me (and anyone else should they need it).  It's great having you back.  Missed you!

Nancy

Thomas and Krissim Klaw,

Many thanks!  Thomas, the diagrams and photos have helped me immensely (they have the same pictures at the vet showing cat and dog bodies in varies degrees of starving to obese).  These are excellent and I really appreciate the time you took to set them in front of me.  I'm going to try printing it so it is in my face on a daily basis! 

I am definitely going to stop the daily feedings!  Why have I been working so hard?  Apparently, mantids will over-eat!

I just noticed that the Budwing doesn't have that side slit but most of the other girls do.  My boys are skinny.

Again, thanks so much, both of you! I really appreciate your help 'cause it is deflating to have this happening.

Nancy 

Indeed feel free to do whatever you want with it (share, print, etc.) Nancy. It seems the forum update allows photos to be added now, but really shrinks them too, even if clicked. To view the full-size image to print view the image here (it will fill a page).

Freda is plump but within range. If that is her fresh ooth, lighter feedings will help as with an ooth inside her, she is likely much too large. The other photo of the one sitting on the paper towel roll though is obese, even if she has a ooth inside, I'd limit her feedings to get her back to a manageable weight.

Glad to see it was of help, it seemed easier to try to put something like that together than trying to explain it. I did the typical Chinese/Griffin/Carolina/etc abdomen as it is the most common; however, other species such as Ghosts and several others are vastly different (and do not have the slit that can expand either in their abdomen). In those cases you still go by the abdomen roundness, but it tends to gather typically in the middle only or such (those I keep fed so they have a round bump in the middle).

Yeah some mantids will eat till they nearly pop, and many species will easily overeat - especially the females. They seem to be like canines in that regard, if there is always food available they will continuously eat. It must be evolution in that regard, as they are use to having to find and capture limited prey. In captivity they are not as active (searching/foraging/flying) to find prey, and can have much more prey available.

Males tend to run skinny, especially as adults. Some will only eat once a week even, this seems to be ensure they can fly easily to find a mate, and are preoccupied in breeding. I feed them just like the females each time, although lighter, that way they will eat if they are hungry (and if not I haven't wasted the feeders, or have to worry about feeders annoying or injuring my males).

I try to keep my mantids on the the plump side, but not overly fat. That way it doesn't affect their health and I do not have to worry about a missed feeding. As Krissim Klaw said it is best to feed them less, but more often. In that regard feeding them every other day, or a light meal daily will help. Most keepers do tend to feed them every other day I've noticed.

I hope this helps, and solves the prolapse issue for you from happening in future mantids (and should help relieve the strain on any with a prolapse currently). Best of luck.

 

[Deacon]

Thomas, I guess I should have asked if I could print off your diagram since you did ALL the work?  Do you mind?

I do have a question.  Looking at my Freda in her post-ooth photo, by your diagram, she is still plump then? She has not stopped wandering for the last two hours---I hope she's looking for an ooth spot.  Her first one was in the lid of her plastic container.  The second one in the aquarium was on this double twisted stick.  She's been on it twice and left it---I think I rotated it wrong from last time so I need to find a photo.

Anyway, it is a wonderful thing that you did for me (and anyone else should they need it).  It's great having you back.  Missed you!

Nancy

Edit:  Ah ha!  She is about half done with her third ooth this morning! I'm happy her prolapse did not prevent her from getting that mass out.  

 

[CosbyArt]

Not sure how/why there is a exact reposted message, but I already answer it right above.

 

[Deacon]

Thomas, for some reason I am having problems getting into the right spot this morning.  Like yesterdays's post was still in front of me in the works, yet already posted, too.  Now it seems to be setting up correctly.  I'm sure I must have done/not done something right. :huh:

Anyway, Freda is slimming down by the minute and I'll try my best to keep her that way

Again, thank you!

 

[Deacon]

Post #3 ooth.  Still over-weight? And covered with ooth matter. Oh and I see that she actually does have the side rib thingy now that she is not so expanded!!!

 

[CosbyArt]

Alright, I was just curious as to what happened there earlier.

Going by her segment definition and roundness I would place her in the stage between plump and gravid. In that regard she isn't bad, just watch her feeder amount. By the way that is an impressive ootheca size from her.

 

[Deacon]

All three have been like this one.  Maybe that's why she get so dang big?

 

[CosbyArt]

All three have been like this one.  Maybe that's why she get so dang big?

Perhaps that would explain the one female, but I'm doubtful. It does however, explain the huge ooths. Perhaps her enormous size relates to the enormous ooths, but at a cost of her health. I do know everyone likes to keep gravid girls fed well.