Idolomantis Consolidated

[Precarious]

I've been reading all of your guys post and doing my own setup. Right now my idolos are in a net cage with thin branches everywhere plus a ceramic heater on top so I can sleep at night. When they larger will switch net cages for them, but now they are still at L3s.

Be careful to keep humidity up in that net cage. Especially if you've got heat on them. In my opinion, humidity is more important than extra heat for nymphs. You'll probably have to use a humidifier in the room or watch for when they are ready to molt and put them in a separate high humidity enclosure when the time comes. Just my opinion. Let us know how it goes.

 

[sporeworld]

Yeah, in something that large you could just put your humidifier IN the cage!

I think the mesh is about as relevant as glass in terms of wether they can climb or molt on it. If it's a big enclosure, and they have lots of twigs, they mesh they CAN'T grip is probably better than one they CAN.

Those walk-in net cages ARE pretty tempting...

 

[Precarious]

I think the mesh is about as relevant as glass in terms of wether they can climb or molt on it. If it's a big enclosure, and they have lots of twigs, they mesh they CAN'T grip is probably better than one they CAN.

Perhaps I should clarify.

The adults and subs CAN grip the tight mesh. I have my adults in one right now and they have no trouble hanging from it. The problem is they can't grip it tight enough to molt from. According to others' reports when they try they often fall. They need something they can wrap their feet around.

Also, if they try to step onto a tight mesh after molt (stepping off the skin) they damage their feet, fall, and won't be able to grip anything after. Once the new carapace has hardened it's no problem. Try it while it's soft and the tiny hooks rip right off.

You are welcome to try it if you need to see it for yourself, but I don't recommend it. I watched my first adult Heterochaeta sp. suffer the same fate. I installed loose mesh and the remaining two molted to adult with no issues.

 

[angelofdeathzz]

All this is why I use real sticks with the bark still on, its the Best and its free, I do think this it what they molt on in the wild...

I don't see a need to reinvent the wheel, lol

 

[sporeworld]

Perhaps I should clarify.

The adults and subs CAN grip the tight mesh. I have my adults in one right now and they have no trouble hanging from it. The problem is they can't grip it tight enough to molt from. According to others' reports when they try they often fall. They need something they can wrap their feet around.

Also, if they try to step onto a tight mesh after molt (stepping off the skin) they damage their feet, fall, and won't be able to grip anything after. Once the new carapace has hardened it's no problem. Try it while it's soft and the tiny hooks rip right off.

You are welcome to try it if you need to see it for yourself, but I don't recommend it. I watched my first adult Heterochaeta sp. suffer the same fate. I installed loose mesh and the remaining two molted to adult with no issues.

Just to re-clarify (or redirect? or restate?), is it our collective advice to DIS-courage ANY molting on the sides - whether that side is screen OR twigs? I know I've witnessed nymphs distress at glass walls they couldn't climb. To that end, if designing a custom enclosre, would you/we consider having sloping sides, removing ALL vertical planes?

 

[myzticalboi]

Did you mean to say "...so I can sleep at night" or "they" can sleep at night...?

Lol. For me to sleep. I can't sleep with the lights on. So the ceramic bulb works magic. I've had two molts to L3 with 40-50% humidity, but I noticed that they are so darn fragile! One lil bump or scratch they lose a limb here and there.

 

[Precarious]

Just to re-clarify (or redirect? or restate?), is it our collective advice to DIS-courage ANY molting on the sides - whether that side is screen OR twigs? I know I've witnessed nymphs distress at glass walls they couldn't climb. To that end, if designing a custom enclosre, would you/we consider having sloping sides, removing ALL vertical planes?

None of mine have ever tried to molt from the side of my enclosures, but that's because I use glass. I had one side all vines and twigs and they didn't try to molt from there either. I can't be certain of the situation in which others report molts from sides of net cages but it could very well be due to overcrowding.

I don't think there is any necessity to eliminating vertical walls. Nor do I think it is much of a concern if nymphs struggle trying to climb glass. So long as there is something along each wall they can climb I don't see a problem. One vertical branch running from floor to ceiling is sufficient.

My advice would simply be not to include surfaces they can grip, but not well enough to molt from, or that will damage their soft feet after molt (unless you move them to a separate enclosure during molt). You can shape an enclosure however you like if you follow those rules. I don't think there is a solution to their tendency to choose pore locations to molt other than an arched ceiling as you have suggested in the past. That may be surefire if surfaced with the right materials.

And I'd like to point out I am by no means an authority, but I am a very astute observer. These suggestions I'm making are only my personal conclusions based on my limited experience, which is one generation of Idolo from L1 to adult. So, since there is no authoritative rule book to follow, do what makes the most sense to you. I just don't want to come off sounding like a know-it-all.

 

[sporeworld]

"... others report molts from sides of net cages but it could very well be due to overcrowding."

I watched this happen with one of my adults. It was excrutiating. Just sort of oozed out of the skin, fumbled the "flip" and collapsed into a useless pile. He lived about a week with wrinkled wings, but that's it. He only had one roommate, so it wasn't overcrowding. Just a bad decision, and I didn't identify the risk.

"...concern if nymphs struggle trying to climb glass."

Seen this, too. A few times as L1-L3, none after that. So, might be moot.

"...arched ceiling as you have suggested in the past."

Yeah, I'm still thinking a molting cage might be ideal. Then adults can go communal in a tent for all I care, after that.

"I just don't want to come off sounding like a know-it-all."

Oh, if only someone DID know it all!!! I figure, if you got a nymph to adult, you've earned the right to chime in! At this point, it's a lot of speculation, anyway.

(I don't think I did this "quote" stuff properly. Fingers crossed...)

 

[sporeworld]

I'm more and more inclined to agree with the people suggesting that humidity, for this species, is largely irrelevant. I'm watching these guys at L2, L3 and L4 molt in the low 20's without incident. And quickly. I haven't timed it yet, but I don't remember seeing another species flip out of their skin this fast.

I think, adding the humdidity probably doesn't hurt anything, though. And I've been testing them at different times of day and temps to see if they'll drink. No interest. Different species in nearly the same situation, and all the nymphs hoover up the droplets. Not scientific, but pretty strong indications.

 

[Colorcham427]

My plans, opinions and experience so far with this awesome species:

What really moves me is their dramatic change from L1 to L2. L2 stage, they show so much beautiful purple and violets, I love how stunning they appear under a good day light bulb meant for reptiles. And as adults, we all know how amazing they look!

I have had many nymphs drink in front of me. Never as eager as Lobata or Popa, some species just aren't sponges lol.

Keeping cages clean should always be part of your schedule.

Keeping your feeder bugs clean should always also be part of your schedule.

I strongly feel this species does best on very dried branches, twigs with lots of scratchy coating for good stability during molting.

I had an ooth hatch the other day, and I am going all the way with plastic/glass container/tank with lots of carefully spaced out twigs VS. my original setting which was plastic sides with a mesh for a ceiling. I feel that if one is using mesh for a ceiling, the larger the idolo is, the more layers of mesh is required for their claws to cling to. Their claws are rowed up, not bunched together like a hand. I made the mistake by using one single sheet of mesh, these larger nymphs L5 + should have a round, or at least thick layer of something to hold on to while they are squiggling their way out of their exoskeleton.

Space is always a good thing to consider with Mantids in general, due to molting and catching prey situations.

The larger they get, the more humidity for my guys. These guys get heavy, and they're truly oddly shaped, lots of difficult movements while staying clung to something. Upping the humidity just seems to be the most sensible thing to do when they get larger and have more of a struggle.

Ever since I found out the seasonal changes in their home land, the ones that make it to adult hood, are the ones that hatch out and are going towards adult hood as the rain starts to come. L1 - L3 nymphs do more than fine without much humidity.

These guys seem to hide stress and sickness well, so well that once they are 100% dead, it happens within a day, not so much a gradual 10% per day. It's more like... BOOM, I'm now dead lol.

Once these get to L5 or larger, I feel the amount of space is crucial for their well being. In my opinion, this species is very territorial, but not aggressive like other species towards one another. My idolos are moved to an enclosure with a heck of a lot more roaming space once they reach that L5 size. They are so heavy, with such little b!tch peg legs lol.

If any of you have adult females that are still doing good, I am going to get a lot of males soon. Let me know by email if you want to get these females a'poking.

[email protected]

 

[sporeworld]

Here's a pic of a very sparcely appointed enclosure - but I'm really happy with it (functionally). I hot-glued the background plants (which i love, structurely) to the glass bottom, and leaned them against the back wall. Really easy for nymphs to climb up. The white flowers I'm not thrilled with, but again, they're functional.

The heat Rock in the bottom left doesn't seem as useful in such a large enclosure, but we'll see. Given the choice between rising heat (left) and blistering heat lamp (right) you can see what they chose (that's them clustered on the far right).

I started putting smaller and smaller deli-cup-fly-hatcheries straight into the enclosure a day or so after they've eclosed. Getting better and timing them out now.

Still experimenting with different substrate. Not loving any of them. (I need to learn how to take pitures, apparently).

 

[sporeworld]

Here's a better view of the plants, and background.

 

[sporeworld]

Dinner time.

 

[sporeworld]

Here's an odd, but favorite hunting spot for a few Idolos...

And here are 2 pics illustrating the standing long jump these guys are capable of. Wish I'd have had it on video...

 

[sporeworld]

And here's something I'm seeing in about 1 in 20 Idolos. They head to the lower branches about 2 days in advance and molt from there - all the others just use the screen. It's interesting to see how they hold on to the leaf.

 

[Precarious]

And here's something I'm seeing in about 1 in 20 Idolos. They head to the lower branches about 2 days in advance and molt from there - all the others just use the screen. It's interesting to see how they hold on to the leaf.

Interesting. It makes sense.

 

[angelofdeathzz]

Very nice tanks sporeworld, I like the way you can open either side to get in there when needed. And yeah mine molt as much from the mid branches and leaves as they do from the top of the tank, I think some know it's better to go find a spot alone to molt at (so their not lunch).

@ Brian, seems you've been keeping some secrets from us for a while now bud, we have had this topic open for a long time now, and now when your selling some you join in? To each his own I guess. Hope to hear more from ya on your experience with them...

I've been messaging back and forth with alot of members on the Idolo's, and it seems some feel that humidity is not to important for molting, since I'm not willing to take the chance on a dry Idolo tank as I feel it is Very important, I would love to hear from you guy's on how low your RH is when they molt? What I do know is that I had some gongy molt in a dry tank and mismolts happened but the ones in a humid tank all molted with out any issues, they are close in species genetically so that was all the proof I needed.

 

[Precarious]

I've been messaging back and forth with alot of members on the Idolo's, and it seems some feel that humidity is not to important for molting, since I'm not willing to take the chance on a dry Idolo tank as I feel it is Very important, I would love to hear from you guy's on how low your RH is when they molt?

I'll stick to what worked the first time - LOTS OF HUMIDITY. I started with 6 nymphs. 1 died during L2 molt. Another lived till L8. I now have 4 perfect adult females. If it ain't broke don't fix it, people.

The funny thing is, dry was the bad advice we found everywhere last year and, it would seem, the reason no one was having luck with this species. A little research shows it to be very humid in their natural environment. Seems counterproductive to even try dry when misting a tank really isn't much of a hassle. To be blunt, if I hadn't rejected the majority of useless information out there last year I wouldn't have adults right now. I'd have mismolted or dead Idolos in the bottom of a net cage.

So is there a fascination just to see if they can survive in other than their natural conditions or some other objective to these experiments I'm not seeing? Weird...

And while I'm on a rant, what are these emoticons even supposed to mean???

:shaun: :alucard: :sailor: :donatello:

I mean I can't imagine a situation where I'd use a black poodle nurse (?), a pimp wearing a head mic, a winking pipe-smoking creep with a white toupee floating above his scalp, or a Mutant Ninja Turtle in front of a band aid other than right here. Oh, I guess I answered my own question. Or did I? No?

I'm going back to bed... inch:

 

[Christian]

Hi.

I haven't been here for long, and now what do I see? There isn't much progress regarding breeding successes. Most advices were written down previously, so I will make it short. Apologies for this.

1. There was a breeding report in Orin's Journal, so why for God's sake don't you guys stick to that? It was the result of about 4 years (at that time) of continuous breeding, so we couldn't have been so bad after all...

The total breeding time was 6 years, then I had to spend some time in the tropics (poor me... ) and gave up the stock. It still exists, I was told (IGM 25).

2. Anyway: all enclosures I have seen are not suitable: take out the fancy stuff and fill it completely up with thin branches. It may not look so nice but do you want to have a fancy terrarium or to breed a difficult species? You can stick to the fancy stuff again later, when you know what you're doing.

3. Humidity IS an issue. Not for small nymphs but for older instars. 60-80% by day and 70-100% should be given when subadult latest!

4. Temperature IS an issue: our stock did well with 28-32° C on average by day (higher in the spots, but not much) and 18-22° at night. Lower temps were bad, higher temps were bad, and if you want hatching ooths, the temps at night should not exceed 24°. More important: This temps should be given at every point in the enclosure, then the specimens will not always try to get to the highest point, although this cannot be avoided completely (see below). I had the best results with a combination of heaters (cable) and spotlights, to keep the temps at the desired degree at every point of the terrarium.

5. Size IS an issue. I have read something of a deli cup or something. Forget it. The larger the enclosure the better. You have less problems with larger terraria, because the temps can be fixed better and the animals have more space to spread and to look for a suitable environment. They will not go to the highest point then either. The reason why mantids do this, besides of light and temps, is that they are arboricolous animals and try to get away from the ground. Most enclosures are too small, so they go to the highest point they can reach. You don't have similar problems with larger enclosures, which provide a more natural surrounding.

6. Idolomantis needs very special requirements, and they need them at every time. Laziness or "laissez faire" attitudes are paid immediately with many deaths. They need your attention all the time and most stock vanished due to some other problems of the breeder at some point in time.

So, good luck guys. There is a record to be broken!

Greets,

C.

 

[angelofdeathzz]

Thanks Christian for your thought's and advice, but I thought my tank WAS the way you stated in your post, not fancy/with alot of thin branches, and 70-90% humidity, also a 16 watt heat pad in the bottom to evenly heat the tank, I guess you didn't see it?

In case some of you don't know this guy is a legend(for the good or bad) at keeping these rare beauties, so there you have it from the horses mouth, much like I have done(and Precarious) with them now and in the past.