Idolomantis Consolidated

[Precarious]

I'm also doing a sub-test on constant light. I've already botched it a bit, but I want to see if there are any differences in a group that never get's darkness. I suspect the day/night cycle isn't absolutely necessary.

That equates to torture from my perspective. I would be willing to bet you get many deaths in that group due to stress. All living things need a light cycle. Without our circadian rhythm cued to a light cycle our health and development fails. I encourage you to discontinue this experiment as it amounts to animal cruelty.

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Importance in animals

Circadian rhythmicity is present in the sleeping and feeding patterns of animals, including human beings. There are also clear patterns of core body temperature, brain wave activity, hormone production, cell regeneration and other biological activities. In addition, photoperiodism, the physiological reaction of organisms to the length of day or night, is vital to both plants and animals, and the circadian system plays a role in the measurement and interpretation of day length.

...

Freerunning organisms that normally have one or two consolidated sleep episodes will still have them when in an environment shielded from external cues, but the rhythm is, of course, not entrained to the 24-hour light–dark cycle in nature. The sleep–wake rhythm may, in these circumstances, become out of phase with other circadian or ultradian rhythms such as metabolic, hormonal, CNS electrical, or neurotransmitter rhythms.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm#cite_note-17

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Disruption

Disruption to rhythms usually has a negative effect. Many travellers have experienced the condition known as jet lag, with its associated symptoms of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_(physical)fatigue, disorientation and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insomniainsomnia.

A number of other disorders, for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_disorderbipolar disorder and some http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_disordersleep disorders, are associated with irregular or pathological functioning of circadian rhythms. Recent research suggests that circadian rhythm disturbances found in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_disorderbipolar disorder are positively influenced by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_pharmacologylithium's effect on clock genes.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm#cite_note-54

Disruption to rhythms in the longer term is believed to have significant adverse health consequences on peripheral organs outside the brain, particularly in the development or exacerbation of cardiovascular disease. The suppression of melatonin production associated with the disruption of the circadian rhythm may increase the risk of developing cancer.[url=[/URL][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm"]#cite_note-56]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm

 

[angelofdeathzz]

That equates to torture from my perspective. I would be willing to bet you get many deaths in that group due to stress. All living things need a light cycle. Without our circadian rhythm cued to a light cycle our health and development fails. I encourage you to discontinue this experiment as it amounts to animal cruelty.

...

Importance in animals

Circadian rhythmicity is present in the sleeping and feeding patterns of animals, including human beings. There are also clear patterns of core body temperature, brain wave activity, hormone production, cell regeneration and other biological activities. In addition, photoperiodism, the physiological reaction of organisms to the length of day or night, is vital to both plants and animals, and the circadian system plays a role in the measurement and interpretation of day length.

Yeah I'm not to sure that they would make long in a healthy way in that environment, Precarious may have a point. Or are you joking Spore?

 

[Precarious]

Precarious may have a point. Or are you joking?

I'm serious. This is one of the things they do to inmates at Guantanamo Bay to break them down psychologically. They induce sleep deprivation by exposure to constant bright light (and loud noises in case they do fall asleep).

I don't encourage you to water board your nymphs either, by the way. :sweatdrop:

 

[PhilinYuma]

I'm serious. This is one of the things they do to inmates at Guantanamo Bay to break them down psychologically. They induce sleep deprivation by exposure to constant bright light (and loud noises in case they do fall asleep).

I don't encourage you to water board your nymphs either, by the way. :sweatdrop:

Yay! Fight! Fight! Debate! Debate! Can we all play? Good!

First of all, "torture" is an ugly word for this warm and friendly nation. What the CIA did (does?) at Gitmo is "enhanced interrogation", not torture. Glad we got that sorted.

Secondly, by any entomological measure, this is a very gentle, non invasive, technique. Those who have read the Prete book will be familiar with such techniques as painting mantids' eyes with black paint to make them blind and surgically removing certain organs to test their hearing ability.So calling this torture, how ever much we feel it to be true, is special pleading at best.

We have to be very careful not to let our love of our pets to allow us to confuse them with vertebrates and critters that can feel pain. They can't; it would serve them no purpose. Neither can we induce bipolar disorder or any other cerebral disorder in them. They only just have a cerebral ganglion!

I leave the kitchen cabinet lights on all the time so that I don't kill myself in the middle of the night when stepping over the barrier made to keep out Tucker,. My kitchen is also HF (and ff) fiendly, and if I go in there at night, I will find the HFs motionless, in what is believed by many scientists to be their equivalent of sleep. I do not observe this behavior during the day; and they are much easier to catch when "asleep".

Observing a normal circadian rhythm for mantids, which means that we can't look at or play with them after sundown, (i.e. in the evenings when most of us are home) is advocated by professional and "serious" amateur breeders alike, but I know of no evidence to show that they sustain any harm if deprived of it. Maybe this experiment will give us some data on the subject

I suspect that these Idolos will simply find a shady spot at night and snooze. I look forward to hearing more of this experiment.

O.K. Now for the turn of the opposition!

 

[sporeworld]

Point taken.

Of course, I've had years of mantids living with my bizarre sleep schedule, and almost constant light, without noticeable impact (well, not on THEM, anyway).

My last batch had 16 hour day cycles, which may (possibly) have had more of an impact on development speeds than temperature or humidity. If we had identical temps and humdities, but I had longer light cycles, would mine mature faster or slower? Or would there be no difference?

It's already been suggested that day length (not clear if that's light or heat based) has an affect on some aspects of breeding. What else does it affect...? Mine don't seem to have any hard and fast rules on when they molt. They're on 12 hour cycles, so maybe that's why.

People thought I was going to cook my Creos, but they were totally fine - maybe even better. Aggressive (toward food), easy to breed, alert and evidentally healthy.

I know a lot of people check to see what the weather is like where their mantid was found, but it's not that simple. Nick in Detroit has the same species of Chinese that I do (and some guy in China). But our weather is crazy-different. Do they "survive" in Detroit, but "thrive" in China? I live in a desert, so humidity can't possibly be an all-or-nothing figure for that species. Or temps. We get to 120f and near-zero humidity in the summer. Detroit has 100f/100RH. And does Alaska have mantids? They have like 22 hours of sunlight in the summer. It can't be just that simple.

But the point is probably moot, since I'm out of town for a week, and won't be able to micro-manage any experiments. So (for now) they'll get their sleepy-time.

But I remain curious...

 

[angelofdeathzz]

I'm neutral on this one, I can't say if its good or bad to try, but I know I wouldn't try it, which doesn't mean someone else can't. I just think it could and would be less mantis in my collection when the dust settled.

 

[Precarious]

...but I know of no evidence to show that they sustain any harm if deprived of it. Maybe this experiment will give us some data on the subject

I suspect that these Idolos will simply find a shady spot at night and snooze. I look forward to hearing more of this experiment.

O.K. Now for the turn of the opposition!

"No known evidence" does not amount to evidence of the contrary. Where is the evidence deprivation of a day/night cycle is beneficial to ANY life form?

I will have no part of such experiments. You can all count me out of this thread if the consensus is keeping mantids in an uncomfortable environment is OK.

End of debate. You are free to debate amongst yourselves.

 

[angelofdeathzz]

OK, back to some pics then, here is some I never posted yet. of what were all working for, I think?

The size is misleading he's 4 inches long, I just have biggish hands,lol.

 

[angelofdeathzz]

Here's some shots through the glass of some of my Idolo army, my hands and camera won't fit in there on that angle.

All are L4-5, I have another tank with some big L5's and L6's. I'm going through about 50-60 BB's a day just with my Idolo's. Cha-ching, I'm currently accepting fly donations. ^_^

 

[angelofdeathzz]

thats not a whole lot of flies i am going through half that with just my five

Yeah I don't really count them, it's probably more, I just make sure I let enough go at one time that everybody get's one plus some extra. If I over fed them the whole bottom would be covered in fly carcases in no time, when there full they just eat the head and throw the rest down :angry: and even when I say you go pick that up and eat it, they won't.

 

[alicenwnderlnd]

thats not a whole lot of flies i am going through half that with just my five

Yeah I don't really count them, it's probably more, I just make sure I let enough go at one time that everybody get's one plus some extra. If I over fed them the whole bottom would be covered in fly carcases in no time, when there full they just eat the head and throw the rest down :angry: and even when I say you go pick that up and eat it, they won't.

:lol: :lol: i am having to clean up a lot after them myself, I have one that kills eats the good stuff them drops and gets another! I can imagine your army is hard to control i have my second L-5 today, which is weird, i didn't expect it for another few days. the last molt, one was 4-5 days ahead of the others. now it seems this other one has caught up. it also looks female. Man, i am in love with these guys! :tt1:

 

[angelofdeathzz]

Oh yeah, their very easy on the eye's and very easy to love. Myself and a couple others have learned that there seems to be MANY more females than males for some strange reason? Has anybody else noticed this phenomena? If you get a male put him in his own tank and slow him down if you can, is my advise to any male getters out there.

Mine molt at their own pace some fast some slow, I don't think any chart will tell you anything really except a in general time span that's not too accurate in the end, if you add up all the days they should molt per instar and figure in each one you'll be a month or more off +/- in the end on most of them.

 

[angelofdeathzz]

The easiest way to tell for me to is that the antennae get thicker at the base closest to the head early on Like Precarious said L5-L6, and I can tell at L4(95%) by how fat the abdomen is, the female has a circle or rounder shaped one and the male's look like a stretched out lemon. Think of a steak knife point (male) and a butter knife blunt point (female).

 

[angelofdeathzz]

I had to add this, a L5 going L6, just wish I had better than a 120.00 camera? And skill with said thing...

Yes, I sprayed my mister once before I knew she was molting, but I didn't shock her off the twigs thank g_d!

 

[alicenwnderlnd]

The easiest way to tell for me to is that the antennae get thicker at the base closest to the head early on Like Precarious said L5-L6, and I can tell at L4(95%) by how fat the abdomen is, the female has a circle or rounder shaped one and the male's look like a stretched out lemon. Think of a steak knife point (male) and a butter knife blunt point (female).

I see what you mean! I think i have one male.... I hope its not wishful thinking, but his abdomen is shaped a bit different then the others (longer) and he is a bit smaller. he does not have as much flare on the abdomen fringe(not sure what its called but the decoration skin on the sides of the abdomen) I guess time will surely tell! patience patience! B)

 

[angelofdeathzz]

The males mature first and you have to slow them down with less heat -10 or so, plus a little less food.

 

[Crantis]

That's a very nice set up Nick. What size tank is that?

 

[angelofdeathzz]

That's a very nice set up Nick. What size tank is that?

Thanks, if you speaking of the Molting pic, thats a 12x12x12 Zoo Med that I have 4 of, but I'll be needing to get more soon, the other larger one is a 24x18x18 Exoterra, their both very similar in design and have a vent in the bottom that creates ventilation through convection if you have a heat source (lights) at the top. Joshsfrogs.com has them at a good price.

 

[angelofdeathzz]

Here's a quick pic of a male L6(can be done on L5) Idolo for anyone that needs some help sexing them, notice the thicker base on the antennae, much easier than counting segments for me...

female antennae are thin from top to bottom like thread and usually more curly at the tip but this is not always the case.

100% male here:

 

[sporeworld]

Here's an image of my latest enclosure approach. I found a roll of carpet backing, which has a nice, wide, net-like structure. And its nice and spongy - easy for nymphs to grip (and I'm hoping, adults). I loosely covered all sides and top with the material, and they seem to be doing great with it.

I realize I might have to just do the recommended "lots of sticks" thing as a default, but I'm trying to fight it. L5-L6 are doing great in SpongeWorld (and Spongeworld Lite). Some modifications to the sponges and stronger stems are going to be needed if I'm going to use them for adults.

I also did some limited experiments with Christmas lights. They look nice, but seem to have a minimal affect on temps.

More to come as I get more time...