Idolomorpha cf lateralis - rainbow? (look out - many photos)

[Christian]

Some of the people who mass-bred Gongylus had to get rid of this species because of some kind of allergic reaction to the whitish foam of the ooths. At last, it was almost impossible to open the cage without getting teary eyes and an outburst of sneezing. In fact, there were only a handful of breeders of this species which fed the market. As most of them did not continue it, the huge amount of larvae ceased to exist. The species is still in stock, but the large amount of offered larvae as seen previosly has not been achieved again. It's similar with Ceratomantis, except that this species was given away by the people who found and bred it due to a shortage of space - say new species require getting rid of old ones. I know of one person who has it over here, but I doubt he is very successful. If this species vanishes over here, it is clearly due to a lack of broad interest combined with a lack of skilled breeders. In ecology, this phenomenon is known as "stochastic extinction" :lol:

It's the same problem with many species: there are a few people who are very successful and offer regularly offspring they bred. If all or most of those people quit that particular species from various reasons, it soon will become very rare and even dissappear, except it is one of the easy to breed all-time classics as Hierodula membranacea, Sphodromantis lineola, Phyllocrania paradoxa or Pseudocreobotra wahlbergii. Even Ps. ocellata regularly vanishes, as the "public" prefers wahlbergii due to its larger size. Since I am active, there were at least 3 different stocks of ocellata (one brought into stock by myself), which all dissappeared after a while due to the omnipresence of wahlbergii. We regularly bring new species into stock, but we are only a handful of people and we are no Ark. When new species appear and are at moment of interest to someone, and space or time is a problem, some of the older species have invariably to leave. But once the responsability is on others, you have lost the control over it - and sometimes you realize after a while that the stock has died out. Some examples: Acanthops falcata, Decimiana bolivari, Angela championi, Hestiasula brunneriana (available again), several Acromantis species, Galinthias amoena (available again), several Tarachodes species, Pseudocreobotra ocellata (available again) and so on.

 

[Kruszakus]

Hehehehehe - a nice term for the stock depletion, hehehe :lol:

As for Acromantis - I have the A. formosana strain. As of this moment, I'm pretty close to a successful breeding of this species in Poland - but I cannot be sure, since I have only one male.

In Poland the "stochastic extincion" of the whole species may have its roots in the fact that the market here is just awful! Basically it's just a bunch of parsimonious teens interested only with S. gastrica, and if they get a bigger allowance, they are interested only in "popular" species - C. elongata, P. paradoxa, H. membrancea - people like to play it safe here, no ambition at all! So, the only hope is to trade ooths and save hatchling of more exotic species for faires held in Germany, where you can meet people with the guts to tackle something more challenging.

The only thing that can keep bussiness alive here is going for "must have" species like Gongylus gongylodes, Hymenopus coronatus or Idolomantis diabolica - I quess I have to add at least one of them to my own stock.

BTW - has onyone kept gravid I. lateralis females communaly?

 

[Christian]

I also still have another Acromantis species in stock (A. cf. montana), but there were earlier some other species available, as seen in the TT database.

Regarding the situation you described: it's pretty much the same over here, regarding the pure amount of people. That's why I said that the minority of people who breed more "exotic" species are mostly the same who also introduce new species. The recources for accumulating an indefinite amount of mantid species are restricted, though, so the older ones are quit in favor of the new ones. Not all of the new species can establish, and not all of the established ones make it for a long time. The situation gets better, as there is more interest arising in breeding new species. However, let's see how the situation will be in several years.

 

[jarek]

but you can't except a teenager to keep and breed most exotic mantids because that takes expirience and knowledge in keeping harder species and many of the teenagers are just beginers, also most teenagers are not able to get and indroduce new species.

 

[Christian]

Of course not - but then there is no reason to complain about species vanishing from the stock: it's just the way they go. Unfortunately, most such species are appreciated only after they are no longer available.

 

[Kruszakus]

I've been rearing mantids for just four months. It really is not that hard, and most of the talk about the difficulty of certain species is just legendry. That's why I have a different concept of rearing mantids. Why stick to your usual bread and butter, when you can actually have something a bit more exotic?

And money is not a problem - I'm left with more or less 75$ each month - and the number of mantids I managed to obtain can be mindblowing to some.

You don't understand - it's just annoying, I as a breeder, would like to have more and more exotic species - but there is just no place to get them, since the demant is low and no one wants to keep certain types of mantids. I don't want every species apart from Sphordomantids and Hierodula sp. to be a rare delicacy - it's time to establish something more unique, a new quality - you know what I'm getting at.

It's just that there's much more to mantids than just one or two species, but by the time that certain people will appreciate it, the things that they wanted to have will be long gone. It's just like Marillion's "Season's End": "You never miss it, till it's gone" :lol:

 

[Christian]

Well, first of all: some species are indeed difficult to breed, particularly highland species and some barkies. However, I observed that most people just fail to raise mantids properly. I just want to give an example: small boxes are not adequate for some species. It's better to use larger containers and keep them communally, even at risk of some losses, than putting them one by one in boxes and risk low humidity, mismolds etc. I often propagated and explained communal rearing, with the result that several people insisted on why they are not keeping mantids communally. This leads to the second problem: most people just keep insufficient numbers, mostly due to the boxing technique. However, I don't want to go into further detail here, as this was discussed many times.

There are a lot of mantid species available (at least in Europe - and chéz Yen :lol: ), but not every species is available at any time (see the link in my signature for a list of currently bred species). I think you are just badly informed. As always, it depends on several factors, as number of fairies, time of the year, numbers of offspring etc.. Just because you didn't find what you search for this doesn't mean that they are not in stock. Differing on the difficulty a certain species poses, there may be more or less offspring offered.

At last, some species are not in stock yet, and have never been. We're working on it.

However, don't take me wrong, but I don't think you may be into all the problems of raising mantids after just four months of experience.

 

[jarek]

However, don't take me wrong, but I don't think you may be into all the problems of raising mantids after just four months of experience.

well there can be only 2 options he may have lied or he is just that clever however on polish forum they say he's good;D

 

[Christian]

I am far from saying he has no clue. I just pointed out that 4 months of experience isn't sufficient to have been faced yet with all the problems that may arise. That's less than the duration of one generation in most species. As most problems arise after a couple of generations, I just can't take anyone too serious who hasn't at least some years of experience. Without a drawback you can't know where the specific problems are. Just for comparison: on average, just every third to second new species is successfully bred. The success rate is higher in savanna than in rainforest species and much lower in highland ones.

 

[hibiscusmile]

Wow I missed a lot of good discussions here, I have about 15 Idolmorphia's just hatched. You say I need to keep them at 90F or better? What kind of moisture do they need? I love this species, they are so colorful and dainty. I can hardly wait to see them grow.

Also Christian, you say you like to keep the species together, would this species be good for that? and also would moss be ok in the enclosure or no?

 

[Christian]

Idolomorpha, as all Empusids, ist perfectly suited for communal raising. They are not aggressive and prefer airborne prey. Ensure the temperature to be 35° by day and spray every or every second day in the evening. Larger cages are better. However, this species is also somewhat tricky, so it's better to keep higher numbers, as not every copulation is successful.

Moss is not very adequate, as it will soon dry out. Typical for the habitat are ramified twigs, tall dry grasses and dry tall herbs from the last year.

 

[Kruszakus]

Oh - I've been looking for a couple of species since September - there was no way I could get them, and still I cannot - in some cases I have to wait until April, then maybe they will have them - in others, it's stochastic extinction... Ceratomantids, where art thou? :lol:

Well, I actually lied - this is my fifth month already :lol:

I know that I cannot have too much of a clue about the difficulty of some species, but I've been adviced to stick to easier ones. Regardless of that, I moved on to something, which supposedly should be a challenge - and it wasn't! So, I really would like something with a narrow tolorance for mistakes. I know I may be throwing myself into the deep water, but that's how I like it.

Plus, it really does not take that much experience - I know certain breeders, who failed miserably with species, which in my case are thriving.

As for Idolomorpha - I kept mine at 30-38C daytime, and about 20-25C during the night (two different groups - the 38C/25C group matured within just two months!). I was spraying them every five days, but after the third mould I dropped it down - no mismoults, even though humidity was extra low.

They love wax moths, blue bottle and house flys and - gut loaded, pollen coated - both ways work out fine. L3 should have no problems with catching small wax moths and blue bottle flys, from L4 blue bottle and house flys can be the base of their diet.

Keep them communaly - they are cannibalistic only is they are low on airborne prey. And have a large number - I have 13 of them, and I still don't feel on like I'm on the safe side, hehehe.

Net cages adviced - with a lot of twigs, some colorful flowers will compliment the rainbow-like appearance of the adult ones.

My opinion? One of the nicest species there is, they don't do much, but their looks make up for it.

 

[Rob Byatt]

Plus, it really does not take that much experience - I know certain breeders, who failed miserably with species, which in my case are thriving.

With all due respect, this means nothing. It took me 10 years to be able to breed hissing cochroaches :blink:

Like Christian said, you have only been rearing mantids for 5 months - have you even produced your first generation yet ?

Different species are adapted to different conditions, it is more than likely that you were just lucky with species the experienced breeder failed with, ie. the conditons alraedy present in your house were optimum.

With experience comes the knowledge and abilty to adjust these conditions to suit the species in hand.

Rob.

 

[Kruszakus]

But without a bit of empathy rearing becomes just mechanic, sometimes small adjustments done on a hunch can improve, or even save some species (if you see that something wrong is hapening). Actually, sometimes experience can cause you to be less flexible - it's just like with separation vs communal keeping - I'm in favor of the latter, and I really see that it works with some species, but some people won't budge and will keep them separately, despite the fact, that it makes things easier, and some species are actually thriving on that.

You know what? I will give a sweet example: one guy here in Poland got ahold of a snake, which feeds mostly on frogs - but a mouse or a rat did not interest it, and it was on the egde of starvation. You know what the guy did? He poured water into a small tank, took it out to his garden, and he let the water turn green. Then he dipped the rat in the greenish water and fed it to the snake, hehehe - and that's how a bit of fantasy saved the poor snake

Besides - to me it don't matter if you are experienced or not, if you take care of your animals, if you give them all the attention they require, and if it gives great results - sweet. We don't want any mantid to perish at the hands of ineptitude, don't we?

Bred two species, and I'm currently waiting for A. formosana ooths to hatch. But I have five females and only one male. But my system of introducing the male to the female worked out perfectly even with this ferocious species. The male is a bit of a loverboy, so I'm hoping that he has done his job well - I should find out soon.

I know I'm not experienced with mantids, but when I was about seven, I took a great interest in insects and spiders (it lasted for about six years) - I've spent coundless hours by the pond, in the fields and in the woods; observing wild life, interacting with it (still gettig heebie-jibbies when I see antlion's funnel in the sand) - can this count as an experience of some sort? If that, maybe you are right, and I'm using my experience from back there...

Come to think of it - I'm just pursuing a childhood dream - I was fascinated with mantids, but I could not find them anywhere in Poland - now I have a bit o what I dreamed of in my own house, heh - sweet

 

[jarek]

But without a bit of empathy rearing becomes just mechanic, sometimes small adjustments done on a hunch can improve, or even save some species (if you see that something wrong is hapening). Actually, sometimes experience can cause you to be less flexible - it's just like with separation vs communal keeping - I'm in favor of the latter, and I really see that it works with some species, but some people won't budge and will keep them separately, despite the fact, that it makes things easier, and some species are actually thriving on that.You know what? I will give a sweet example: one guy here in Poland got ahold of a snake, which feeds mostly on frogs - but a mouse or a rat did not interest it, and it was on the egde of starvation. You know what the guy did? He poured water into a small tank, took it out to his garden, and he let the water turn green. Then he dipped the rat in the greenish water and fed it to the snake, hehehe - and that's how a bit of fantasy saved the poor snake

Besides - to me it don't matter if you are experienced or not, if you take care of your animals, if you give them all the attention they require, and if it gives great results - sweet. We don't want any mantid to perish at the hands of ineptitude, don't we?

Bred two species, and I'm currently waiting for A. formosana ooths to hatch. But I have five females and only one male. But my system of introducing the male to the female worked out perfectly even with this ferocious species. The male is a bit of a loverboy, so I'm hoping that he has done his job well - I should find out soon.

I know I'm not experienced with mantids, but when I was about seven, I took a great interest in insects and spiders (it lasted for about six years) - I've spent coundless hours by the pond, in the fields and in the woods; observing wild life, interacting with it (still gettig heebie-jibbies when I see antlion's funnel in the sand) - can this count as an experience of some sort? If that, maybe you are right, and I'm using my experience from back there...

Come to think of it - I'm just pursuing a childhood dream - I was fascinated with mantids, but I could not find them anywhere in Poland - now I have a bit o what I dreamed of in my own house, heh - sweet

with snake it's nothing new, on tv I've seen people were trying to feed dead aligator to to small python and the python wouldn't eat aligator until they put rat skin on it so nothing unusual.

I was also watching insects and spider and everything else in the meadows and fields but I don't think Polish fields and meadows would give me or you and anyone else Idea how to keep and breed exotic mantids but might be wrong. When I was trying to breed mantids it took me about 10 times of trying and incubating the ooths but finaly I managed to breed Plistospilota guinesiss soon after laying ooth female died but I had great hatching.

 

[Kruszakus]

It's rather about general understanding - or maybe just empathy, maybe spending time in the wild created a bond with nature, that allows some people to guess the needs of their animals - you know, just the general understanding of how things work in nature :lol:

But seriously? It's about knowledge and knowing how to use it, but knowledge does not always come just with the experience, you have to be open to new ideas. I must say, that I found most interesting ones here, and they certainly made my colenies thriving. I mean - communal species, flys gut loaded with honey or coated with bee pollen, recreating the natural habitat, by providing mantids with a lot of space in huge cages, as opposed to keeping them separately in small boxes, and so on and so on.

Well, everyone has some rough experiences with mantids - I still cannot figure out what went wrong with P. wahlbergii - I had eleven nymphs, and only one was alive after two months - that was rather sad too.