Aww bummer. It has been lucky for me so far no mismolt on the last stage. I have them about 85-90F, feeding house flies and blue bottles. But i mist them heavily during last stage, once in the morning and another before switching off the light.
Issues with gongy falling?
- Thread starter Rick
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I am misting heavy too Yen, and branches are straight up and slanted, so they can do whatever they want, I think Tier may have something with the nutrition they are getting. Mine really don't have a chance to gut load before eaten, I could probably dip them in it, but with feeding out 1000 or more bbs a day, they dont get to eat.
But I just realized I have them at around 80F . I will up their temp and see what happens. Is that a good temp Tier? 85 F to 90?
sbugir
Well-known member
I remember Tier and Krusz having a discussion about heat. I'll post the thread when I find it, but perhaps its too hot.
Got them from Andrew and that is what he recommended. He has had good luck. They are not falling every molt. I've had a couple do it is all. Seems fairly common by reading what others have said.
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Yes i do gutload the flies before feeding the violin mantis. I also have honey smear on the top of net cage for the flies to feed on while inside the cage.
I use 100+ for breeding only. Although they live alright together, i separate subadult female that is about to molt into individual net cage under 80-90F.
Hi
I just mentioned the flies, Rick, because I a) know you like crickets and you seem to have fine, well working crickets, b ) I know some of you give crickets to empusids and do not realize the fault (see posts of members above) and c) I know you have problems with your Gongie's final moults as you mentioned it and asked for help. So I mentioned the crickets. So I pointed out the crickets because I thought logically. In my opinion, your problem is pretty sure a nutrient problem. That's why I pointed out the food. So, in your opinion food definitively has nothing to do with problems within the final moulting? Auugh, come on! Please!
The enclosure is good, but where are the thin twigs? Look, your Gongie's have to hang on the screen lid their whole life time. The are forced to hang there in the same position their whole life. I thik it could be important that they can rest with their legs in different positions. Yours always have their legs in the same position, they cannot relax one leg or change a leg's position, because they have no twigs in differewnt positions with different structure. It's like a human is forced to lay in his bed his whole lifetime, or stay straight for his whole lifetime. I am sure it is a big problem that they always have their legs in the same position on the same structured surface. Of course they have no chance to relaxe a single leg, but all legs are always chafing at the same position. That causes problems. Put a lot of fine, thin twigs in your enclosure.
Flies have to be fed with honey. It must be a honey mixed of different flowers, like a "wood flower honey" or a "meadow honey". It must not be a honey from only one single plant.
In this case, katnapper, it seems not to be a problem with the Tarsae of the Gongylus. I pointed out that the "screen-top-surface-only" is very very bad, yes. But anyway: They do not fall because they can not stay attached to the sreen surface, but they falll out off the old skin. This is definitively a nutrient problem, not a problem with their Tarsae. That's why I, Rick, pointed out crickets and the importance of honey, bee pollen or reptile-nutrient-powder as food for the flies (I have never used the latter).
I have them moulting on the top-net-screen without problems and on thin twigs. It makes no difference. But they must have the chance to choose a nice place: They must have different assoziated twigs in different positions with different structure. Than they can shoose the screen-top or another place. And they were not forced to always chafe the same part of their legs for their whole lifetime. If they have had a top quality diet and nicely structured enclosures, you minimize the problems while moulting. The temperature Yen pointed out is perfect. In such an open net cage, I would mist them at least 2 times a week or every day just a little bit.
By the way, I keep them in net cages, glass terrariums, wooden cages and plastic boxes. I normally use cages with sizes of 40x60x40cm and I use a 40W spot if the enclosure is not completely open, and for open cages like a net cage I use a 60W spot. I guess it's normal that 10-20% have problems, in nature it will maybe be much more. Sometimes, out of 50 females only two or three missmoult, sometimes from 50 females five have problems with the final moulting, and sometimes out of 50 females, 10 or 15 fall down while the final moult. After about 6-7 years resp. about 12-14 generations breeding them, the 10-20% final missmoults is just an avarage value.
regards
I just mentioned the flies, Rick, because I a) know you like crickets and you seem to have fine, well working crickets, b ) I know some of you give crickets to empusids and do not realize the fault (see posts of members above) and c) I know you have problems with your Gongie's final moults as you mentioned it and asked for help. So I mentioned the crickets. So I pointed out the crickets because I thought logically. In my opinion, your problem is pretty sure a nutrient problem. That's why I pointed out the food. So, in your opinion food definitively has nothing to do with problems within the final moulting? Auugh, come on! Please!
The enclosure is good, but where are the thin twigs? Look, your Gongie's have to hang on the screen lid their whole life time. The are forced to hang there in the same position their whole life. I thik it could be important that they can rest with their legs in different positions. Yours always have their legs in the same position, they cannot relax one leg or change a leg's position, because they have no twigs in differewnt positions with different structure. It's like a human is forced to lay in his bed his whole lifetime, or stay straight for his whole lifetime. I am sure it is a big problem that they always have their legs in the same position on the same structured surface. Of course they have no chance to relaxe a single leg, but all legs are always chafing at the same position. That causes problems. Put a lot of fine, thin twigs in your enclosure.
Flies have to be fed with honey. It must be a honey mixed of different flowers, like a "wood flower honey" or a "meadow honey". It must not be a honey from only one single plant.
In this case, katnapper, it seems not to be a problem with the Tarsae of the Gongylus. I pointed out that the "screen-top-surface-only" is very very bad, yes. But anyway: They do not fall because they can not stay attached to the sreen surface, but they falll out off the old skin. This is definitively a nutrient problem, not a problem with their Tarsae. That's why I, Rick, pointed out crickets and the importance of honey, bee pollen or reptile-nutrient-powder as food for the flies (I have never used the latter).
I have them moulting on the top-net-screen without problems and on thin twigs. It makes no difference. But they must have the chance to choose a nice place: They must have different assoziated twigs in different positions with different structure. Than they can shoose the screen-top or another place. And they were not forced to always chafe the same part of their legs for their whole lifetime. If they have had a top quality diet and nicely structured enclosures, you minimize the problems while moulting. The temperature Yen pointed out is perfect. In such an open net cage, I would mist them at least 2 times a week or every day just a little bit.
By the way, I keep them in net cages, glass terrariums, wooden cages and plastic boxes. I normally use cages with sizes of 40x60x40cm and I use a 40W spot if the enclosure is not completely open, and for open cages like a net cage I use a 60W spot. I guess it's normal that 10-20% have problems, in nature it will maybe be much more. Sometimes, out of 50 females only two or three missmoult, sometimes from 50 females five have problems with the final moulting, and sometimes out of 50 females, 10 or 15 fall down while the final moult. After about 6-7 years resp. about 12-14 generations breeding them, the 10-20% final missmoults is just an avarage value.
regards
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Thanks Tier, that's what I think too, you have given me FOOD (excuse the pun) for thought!
I guess my original post was not clear. No need to bring up crickets. Yes, I defend crickets as feeders often. However, and I will say it again. I do not feed these mantids crickets! In fact I don't own a single cricket. They eat bluebottle flies which are feed on honey. And yes I use three different types of honey on a rotating basis. Try not to make assumptions about what somebody may be doing as you did with my feeding routine.
Let me mention this as well. This is not the final molt. I don't think I ever said it was. There are twigs in the enclosure. About the only thing I can see I am doing differently is the temperature may be too warm.
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If you not want me to make assumptions, next time directly give more basic info, like you did now.-
If it is not the final moult, things are exactly the same, but worse. Normally the biggest loss is within the final moult. If you have already such problems now, it is worse.
I was thinking something like:" Well, 100 times I gave adivise to Gongylus, nobody cares. But now I will do a favour to Rick and again help with this species". Now look what happened - you feel offended, not realize I want to help you, not say thank you but ignore my advise.
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Your advice is not being ignored. I simply don't understand why crickets were brought into this discussion as if I did something wrong by feeding incorrectly. I mentioned flies in my first post even. The only thing I can see doing differently is to add more twigs. Even that seems like a bad idea as it could interfere with molting. But if you say that is what you do then it must work.
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Hi
Well, they can moult very good on the screen top in general. But I think it is not good if they have only this all the time. If they have good twigs where they can hang on from time to time, maybe they will do the moultings on the screen top anyway. But I guess it is not good if they have ONLY this. A twig with the such a big radius I can see in the picture is not good for empusids. Maybe for laying an ooth, but that's it. They prefer twigs with an radius of 1-2mm. Of course one single, straight twig is not good, they need a lot of them arrenged so they can put all 4 legs on thin twigs without their feet building a straight line.
But actually your Gongies have no problems with staying attached to a surface, but with falling out off the old skin. I think this is not a matter of the material or structure or angle where they moult, but a different problem.
I just brought the crickets into discussion because I thought it may be a relevant or interesting point. No need for alarm.
regards
Well, they can moult very good on the screen top in general. But I think it is not good if they have only this all the time. If they have good twigs where they can hang on from time to time, maybe they will do the moultings on the screen top anyway. But I guess it is not good if they have ONLY this. A twig with the such a big radius I can see in the picture is not good for empusids. Maybe for laying an ooth, but that's it. They prefer twigs with an radius of 1-2mm. Of course one single, straight twig is not good, they need a lot of them arrenged so they can put all 4 legs on thin twigs without their feet building a straight line.
But actually your Gongies have no problems with staying attached to a surface, but with falling out off the old skin. I think this is not a matter of the material or structure or angle where they moult, but a different problem.
I just brought the crickets into discussion because I thought it may be a relevant or interesting point. No need for alarm.
regards
Thanks. I added more and thinner twigs. I did keep some of the thicker ones so they have options if they want to use them. Do you think I am keeping them too warm? I will start misting lightly once daily instead of every other day.
Good luck Rick, mist them twice a day if your room is too dry. I don't know how dry is your bug room but mine is really dry. Mine molt from net screen and branches alright.
Hi
Normally their raptorial forelegs stay stucked to the old skin after moulting if kept too dry. If yours are not stucking to the old skin, the humidity seems not to be too low.
Misting twice a day might be ok if kept really hot and in a completely open net cage. Anyway, once a day or every other day shold be enough. L1 and L2 need misting every day, but later insatrs can be misted every other day or three times a week.
The best tempertures are 30-35° for L1 and L2, 35 for L3 till subadult and 40°C for adults/for mating. These are daytime temperatures in the center of the enclosure. In the downer parts and corners, its 5°C lower, directly in the spot in the higest parts its 10°C hotter! That means easily up to 50°C in the hottest parts, and sometimes they do rest there. Mated females again search for cooler spots (30°C) to lay the ooth. Thus, the ooth should also be incubated at around 30°C. The lights are switched on 12hours every day. The night time temperatures MUST be around 10°C lower, night temperatures of 24°C work best.
These temperatures are available by a 40W or 60W spot lamp from your local DoItYourself store for 2 Dollars for the spot and 10 Dollars for the lamp I guess. I mean something like a desk-lamp. In cold winters, I have to use a small heating cable running 24/7, too.
Normally their raptorial forelegs stay stucked to the old skin after moulting if kept too dry. If yours are not stucking to the old skin, the humidity seems not to be too low.
Misting twice a day might be ok if kept really hot and in a completely open net cage. Anyway, once a day or every other day shold be enough. L1 and L2 need misting every day, but later insatrs can be misted every other day or three times a week.
The best tempertures are 30-35° for L1 and L2, 35 for L3 till subadult and 40°C for adults/for mating. These are daytime temperatures in the center of the enclosure. In the downer parts and corners, its 5°C lower, directly in the spot in the higest parts its 10°C hotter! That means easily up to 50°C in the hottest parts, and sometimes they do rest there. Mated females again search for cooler spots (30°C) to lay the ooth. Thus, the ooth should also be incubated at around 30°C. The lights are switched on 12hours every day. The night time temperatures MUST be around 10°C lower, night temperatures of 24°C work best.
These temperatures are available by a 40W or 60W spot lamp from your local DoItYourself store for 2 Dollars for the spot and 10 Dollars for the lamp I guess. I mean something like a desk-lamp. In cold winters, I have to use a small heating cable running 24/7, too.
Information is much appreaciated Tier, I will follow your advice, thanks!
I have a 25w lamp over them now. Under the lamp which is six inches away it is 100+ degrees F. My ambient temps are well about 85.
kamakiri
Well-known member
Not that my opinion matters much on the subject, I can say that I have had 100% success in molts from L2 to L5 
None of the molts have been on the horizontal tub lid, and they have all been in the section of plastic grid similar to that in the above pic. I get that particular grid from mantisplace. My concern going forward for me is how to scale the seemingly preferred molting angle so that it is wide enough as mine get larger.
10 to 20% mismolts does not seem to be a good number to systematically design to, and I doubt that the mismolt rate in nature would be that high, but again, what do I know?
I do like tier's temp and daylight durations, as this is as close to topical or sub-tropical conditions that we can simulate in captivity. In the tropics daylight duration is not shorter than about 11hrs or longer than 13hrs. Typical daytime high to night time low usually only vary by about 10 degrees F. This is already in the range that I am keeping the ghosts and have added the cryptic and violins to.
None of the molts have been on the horizontal tub lid, and they have all been in the section of plastic grid similar to that in the above pic. I get that particular grid from mantisplace. My concern going forward for me is how to scale the seemingly preferred molting angle so that it is wide enough as mine get larger.
10 to 20% mismolts does not seem to be a good number to systematically design to, and I doubt that the mismolt rate in nature would be that high, but again, what do I know?
I do like tier's temp and daylight durations, as this is as close to topical or sub-tropical conditions that we can simulate in captivity. In the tropics daylight duration is not shorter than about 11hrs or longer than 13hrs. Typical daytime high to night time low usually only vary by about 10 degrees F. This is already in the range that I am keeping the ghosts and have added the cryptic and violins to.
