Mantis had a seizure?

[DonovanXFrancesca]

Hi. So I have what I believe to be a male Chinese mantis. He's an adult, likely near the end of his life span (he's wild caught). I've had him for maybe 2  weeks maximum. He's kept in a decently-sized enclosure with mesh lid that I rinse out weekly and daily empty poop/food remains.

Just a few moments ago, I looked in and he was violently shaking his whole body. Head twitching, foreclaws snapping and shaking, wings extending and closing, abdomen writhing. His eyes are also very dark, but it's very bright. Now he's unresponsive. His mouth was also "hanging" open, but it appears to be closed now. His foreclaws are spread wide. Can a mantis have a seizure? Is he dead/dying now? He hasn't assumed the "death" position and appears still to be looking at me with those odd mantis pupils.

If it makes any difference, I believe he was stepped on/attacked by something at some point in time, as he's missing a leg and his wings covers are a bit raggedy. He's very limp are his thorax is nearly hanging. Is there anything I can do for him? I know he's an old man (right around now is when mantids of my area die off) but I don't want him to suffer. Thoughts/advice?

 

[DonovanXFrancesca]

Also, if I happen to see him seizing again, I will attempt to film it. I've also tried giving him water via a wet Q-tip but he's not doing anything... His name is King and he's my little man Thank you for your help guys

 

[DonovanXFrancesca]

Okay this is serious now because one of my other mantids is also acting up. Another adult male, presumably near the end of his life-cycle and caught at the same time, is also acting up?? He displayed randomly at nothing (not too weird...) But just a minute ago when I picked him up to move him to a different enclosure, he stretched his forelegs as far as he could and lowered himself to the skin of my hand with his mouth wide open. He seems not in control of his actions. King, the first one, is also responsive now with I try to move or touch him. But it's like he's half-paralyzed and can only move so much. Is this a disease? A parasite? Will this spread to and kill my females and last male?? I'm seriously worried because not only do I value these individuals, but also the offsprings from my female. Please help!! This isn't something that can wait a week for a reply .. this is urgent!

 

[mantisfan101]

Did you happen to spray any pesticides/chemicals or feed any wild caught insects? Did you or anyone else happen to spray any pesticides or chemicals around your house? This sounds like a case pf pesticide poisoning to me.

 

[DonovanXFrancesca]

Did you happen to spray any pesticides/chemicals or feed any wild caught insects? Did you or anyone else happen to spray any pesticides or chemicals around your house? This sounds like a case pf pesticide poisoning to me.

No, I haven't fed these two specifically any wild insects, only captive. I also don't recall any new chemicals in use... About a week ago there was a bathroom cleaner spray bottle in the same room for a few hours? It's been quite awhile tho, and it wasn't actually sprayed. They were both caught at my school tho, does that count for anything? I just got home so I'm going to go check on them right now. When I left King was flat on the ground, just about dead. Harry (the second) was very stiff with crossed forearms?

 

[DonovanXFrancesca]

Did you happen to spray any pesticides/chemicals or feed any wild caught insects? Did you or anyone else happen to spray any pesticides or chemicals around your house? This sounds like a case pf pesticide poisoning to me.

Okay so I just checked.... They're both flat on their backs in the death position, but still slightly alive. King is seizing again. Harry is holding onto a plant with his foreleg... I've attached a video of King seizing. I don't think this is rigor mortis(?) Because his eyes are still looking at me, and in my experience really dead mantids dont have the little pupils. None of my 3 other mantids seem to have any issue, just these two... 

View attachment 20191009_200417.mp4

 

[hysteresis]

Chemicals need to be contact or aerosol. Having a bottle in a room without using it wont do a thing. I dont know what to say besides sorry.

 

[DonovanXFrancesca]

Chemicals need to be contact or aerosol. Having a bottle in a room without using it wont do a thing. I dont know what to say besides sorry.

Thank you.. could this possibly be disease? How can I keep it from spreading to my other mantids if it is? I'm going to separate King and Harry now (I expect they'll be completely dead in the morning..) and do lots of hand-washing between handlings, I guess. It just hurts how they look at you and you can do nothing to help I suppose it's a comfort that they "don't feel pain".. but I imagine dying is not pleasant, especially when you're violently seizing all throughout. I'll cover them so hopefully the dark will calm then and they can pass a little more peacefully... Thank you for all your help guys. If you happen to have any ideas please do tell, even a slight explanation is nice 

 

[DonovanXFrancesca]

So I just want to update on this. It's been about 26 hours since the "deaths" of King and Harry, but they're not quite dead. They're both on their backs, legs crossed, but they still "look" at me. In my experience, a dead mantid's eyes will cloud over and you can't see the pupils within a few hours of death. This leads me to believe that whatever has affected them, it has to do with their nervous system. They seized violently, and now they have no control over their bodies. They're basically paralyzed, I think. 

Another thing I failed to remember was that I touched a wild mantis that was acting strangely yesterday before my boys acted up. It was a male Stagmomantis limbata, and he was very shaky and shuddery. I picked him up to move him away from some dangerous people, and moved on. I don't believe I washed my hands in the hour or so until I got home and was in the same room as my boys... But I didn't touch them. When I noticed King first losing it, I hadn't had any contact with any of my mantids. And after touching King, I had contact with 3 other mantids (all kept in the same room, within a foot of each other), one of which being Harry, who also started acting strangely just before I first touched him, although none of the others have any ill behavior as of now.

I would love input from anyone else, whether it be a hypothesis or experience on the topic. I feel like this is some sort of parasite from the way it's affected my mantids (and only 2 out of 5), but at the same time, with the addition of touching a strange wild mantis, it sounds like a disease. 

At the moment I'm avoiding having any contact with any of my healthy mantids to hopefully keep them safe, but it can't be like that forever, as I hand-feed them all. Thank you for anyone who bothers to read this long thread, and even more thank yous to those who give any sort of reply.

 

[hysteresis]

I dont know what to say.  I haven't experienced quite that.

 

[MantisGirl13]

This sounds like fairly normal old age for males. I've had males twitch for days after death. 

- MantisGirl13

 

[DonovanXFrancesca]

This sounds like fairly normal old age for males. I've had males twitch for days after death. 

- MantisGirl13

But it to be this violent while they're still alive?  

 

[Synapze]

I would suggest euthanizing them especially if you suspect illness.

 

[DonovanXFrancesca]

I would suggest euthanizing them especially if you suspect illness.

They're now "fully" dead, but how would I do that? For future reference.

 

[Synapze]

Sorry you lost them.

 

[Mantis Lady]

They're now "fully" dead, but how would I do that? For future reference. 

Putting your sick/dying mantis in the freezer to end suffering.

Sorry for your loss. it is not fun seeing them suffering and there is nothing you can do for them.

 

[Krissim Klaw]

But it to be this violent while they're still alive?  

Yes, this is rather normal. Basically as their bodies shut down and they loose control of their limbs, which is why you can see fits of shaking intermittently. Some will even grab their heads/antennae. Some mantises go quicker than others. Boys tend to fade fast while girls can linger for several days. It can take a couple of days after death for their eyes to fully cloud. Just because the eye is clear doesn't mean the mantis is still alive, although I also make a point to wait to bury mine until after their eyes have clouded. Mantises don't control the black spot you see that seems to follow you. It is what is known as a pseudopupil. The black spot is the part in the compound eye that is absorbing the light from your perspective. Hence as you move or rotate the mantis it appears to shift.

 

[DonovanXFrancesca]

Yes, this is rather normal. Basically as their bodies shut down and they loose control of their limbs, which is why you can see fits of shaking intermittently. Some will even grab their heads/antennae. Some mantises go quicker than others. Boys tend to fade fast while girls can linger for several days. It can take a couple of days after death for their eyes to fully cloud. Just because the eye is clear doesn't mean the mantis is still alive, although I also make a point to wait to bury mine until after their eyes have clouded. Mantises don't control the black spot you see that seems to follow you. It is what is known as a pseudopupil. The black spot is the part in the compound eye that is absorbing the light from your perspective. Hence as you move or rotate the mantis it appears to shift.

That's really interesting! Thank you so much for that info It just feels wrong to bury a mantis while the pseudopupil is still visible... Feels like they're watching you. It's odd because it took about 48 hours for all big movement to cease. After that it was just slow, little movements I assume was rigor mortis. It's the opposite with me on how quickly mantids die. My females can go from fine to dead in 6 hours, clouded eyes and all, whereas males can take days. Although, I've kept many more females than males, and only of 2 species. 

What bothers me is this happened almost simultaneously. Everything was fine, no worries, no issues, happy and healthy boys .. then within a half an hour they were both freaking out. It's seems odd for them to die together... Very odd. Although, my 3 others are fine. My remaining male is actually taking interest in my unmated female, so maybe I'll help him get some this week lol. 

Slightly unrelated (should I make a new thread for these?): Do your males tend to eat significantly less than females? I understand they're smaller and aren't producing ooths, but my males won't even finish a whole mealworm. Like, the tiniest mealworm. They'll eat for 10 minutes, get maybe 1/3, and drop it. Odd? Females devour 3 larges in 10 minutes... My male Donovan would eat up to 8 houseflies in one sitting and get every last bite. But after his last shed, it's like food isn't an interest. Not worked about his health, just curious about your experiences everyone

thanks everyone for your help!!

 

[Mantis Lady]

Do your males tend to eat significantly less than females?

yes, they eat less. I have seen it in all my adult males I had. Females eat a lot because they need the energy to make ooths. They always lay ooths if they are mated or not.