mortality rates?

[desana]

can anyone post a list of mantids that seem to have the highest mortality rates as nymphs pls. the only ones i know of are chinese & european... cheers.......ive tried a seach but cant find anything .........

 

[Rick]

I doubt you will find much info on that subject. You may get some peoples personal experiences though. The mortality rates would depend on many factors. In general many mantid species lay a large amount of eggs to help ensure at least a few will make it due to the high mortality rate of nymphs.

 

[Christian]

The mortality rate isn't a feature of certain species but of certain breeders...

 

[sidewinder]

The mortality rate isn't a feature of certain species but of certain breeders...

Christian,

It's a given that the conditions in which nymphs are raised will affect mortality rates. But that is not the question being asked.

You can't tell us that every mantid species has the same nymph mortality rate. Unless, of course, mantids are unique in the animal kingdom. So your glib answer doesn't really help anyone and is technically inaccurate.

Scott

 

[Christian]

Calm down. As with "inbreeding", mortality rate is overestimated in mantids. It happens because of inaccurate conditions. In nature, mantids die because of starvation or predation. In some regions, unusual climatic factors may add (late frosts, early or severe dry season etc.). They do not die without any reason or to fit a statistic. Starvation and predation can be controlled in captivity. Remains the climatic reason. One might think this can be sorted out in captivity as well, nevertheless many people fail in assuring the right conditions.

As a consequence, mortality rate is usually caused by the breeder. No animal dies instantly without any reason. Genetic factors account for only a minority of losses.

Is this more accurate to you?

 

[sidewinder]

Christian,

Calm down? I am certainly calm. Just because someone points out a glib response from you does not mean you need to tell them to calm down.

In captivity, animals of all types die for unknown reasons. A lot of research goes into this phenomenon so clearly there are not a lot of concrete answers. There is also a lot research into the variability of the survival rate amongst species in the same genus in captivity.

So, if we had all the knowledge regarding environmental and nutritional factors that effect premature death of any animal in captivity, we could eliminate those causes. However, some species die more often than others even when you remove starvation, predation, and climatic factors. And that leaves us with the original question, doesn't it?

Scott

 

[Christian]

However, some species die more often than others even when you remove starvation, predation, and climatic factors. And that leaves us with the original question, doesn't it?

No they don't. No animal dies for "unknown" reasons. They may just be just unknown to us. This doesn't mean the mortality rate is unusually high. The difference between the mortality rates of the same species at different breeders is due to better or worse adjusted conditions. People should learn to take responsibility for their animals and their abilities and not state all the time that all failures are the fault of the animal: inbreeding, high mortality rates, all these are just myths.

 

[sidewinder]

No they don't. No animal dies for "unknown" reasons. They may just be just unknown to us.

Christian,

Sure they do. "Unknown to us" is the same thing as "unknown". Animals don't die for no reason. Since we don't know everything about every species, animals die for unknown reasons and, in captivity, mortality rates differ from species to species. Which gets us back to the original question.

Scott

 

[etb99]

Christian makes a lot more sense than you do Scott and I don't mean that in an unkind way.

In general the number of offspring any animal produces is related to the survival rate of that offspring, due to factors in the environment, not some innate mortality rate. If mantis A produces 200 nymphs and mantis B 40 then that is because A is preyed upon more, food is more difficult to find, climatic factors are more variable etc., not because A is more likely to keel over suddenly for no reason.

If there are significant differences in mortality that is more than likely due to the fact that we don't provide the right conditions, i.e the breeder like Christian said.

IF we knew the perfect conditions for each species I'd bet we would always raise a similar % to adulthood, lets say 95% of each species. If you believe that is not true I'd love to see some data on that.

 

[sidewinder]

Christian makes a lot more sense than you do Scott and I don't mean that in an unkind way.In general the number of offspring any animal produces is related to the survival rate of that offspring, due to factors in the environment, not some innate mortality rate. If mantis A produces 200 nymphs and mantis B 40 then that is because A is preyed upon more, food is more difficult to find, climatic factors are more variable etc., not because A is more likely to keel over suddenly for no reason.

IF we knew the perfect conditions for each species I'd bet we would always raise a similar % to adulthood, lets say 95% of each species. If you believe that is not true I'd love to see some data on that.

etb99,

You are making my point for me. Christian's answer is fine from a theoretical standpoint. The problem is that we don't know the perfect conditions for each species so there is no way to eliminate the unknowns which will result in variable mortality rate amongst species raised in captivity.

Christian is correct to point out that breeder error causes a lot of mortality. But that does not mean that all variability in mortality rates is due to breeder error. Some of this variability is due to a general lack of knowledge of the needs of certain species. As we become more knowledgeable about the needs of these species, their mortality rates will go down.

Scott

 

[OGIGA]

Oh goodness... this question is never going to get answered, is it?

Anyway, I found that stagmomatis has a pretty high mortality rate. And for those who disagree and think it's because of me, well maybe it is.

 

[Christian]

In general, temperate zone species do worse in captvity than tropical ones. Possible exceptions don't break the rule.

But that does not mean that all variability in mortality rates is due to breeder error. Some of this variability is due to a general lack of knowledge of the needs of certain species.

Not knowing the conditions falls into the "breeder error" category, as the fault is to be found at him/her, irrespective of being intentional or not. Not knowing better doesn't mean we have to blaim the mantids. I wanted to point out that there is no such thing as a high innate mortality rate in any species (with the exception of some parthenogenetic strains). It is not innate, it is caused by the environment, and as such falls under the responsibility of the breeder. That's the difference.

 

[sidewinder]

Christian,

By definition, the only way a person can error is if an action is known to be a mistake. Let's posit for a moment that Drosophila melanogaster are slightly toxic to Parashendale Affinnis, but no one actually knows this. A breeder feeding Drosophila melanogaster to Parashendale Affinnis is not making an error. Drosophila melanogaster is an accepted food used by most all breeders to feed mantid nymphs. The error is in the knowledge or the lack of it. Not in the action.

I don't recall anyone suggesting that any mantis species had "high innate mortality rates". Nor do recall anyone blaming the mantids for dying prematurely. But, there is variable mortality rate amongst mantid species raised in captivity. I can say this without having specific knowledge because it is true for every genus. Why would mantids be any different?

Yes, breeder error is likely to blame for deaths some breeders attribute to the mantids. But, that doesn't change the fact that there is variable mortality rate amongst mantid species raised in captivity. Much of this variability is likely due to the lack of knowledge regarding the needs of the various mantid species. However, that does not change the validity of the question that desana asked.

S-

 

[etb99]

Yes, breeder error is likely to blame for deaths some breeders attribute to the mantids. But, that doesn't change the fact that there is variable mortality rate amongst mantid species raised in captivity. Much of this variability is likely due to the lack of knowledge regarding the needs of the various mantid species. However, that does not change the validity of the question that desana asked.S-

What this shows it how important it is to ask the RIGHT question and how you ask it.

You words:

However, some species die more often than others even when you remove starvation, predation, and climatic factors. And that leaves us with the original question, doesn't it?

As Christian rightly answers you yourself suggest an INNATE mortality. Because if we remove all detrimental factors we should get close to 100% survival. To say that a mistake is only a mistake if you know you make it is semantics. WE kill mantids because we don't (always) know the perfect conditions.

We can argue this time and again, but hat seems pointless. Desana should have asked which species seem to be the most difficult to raise from birth in captivity or something like that. As it is the question has too many variables for any useful answer.

 

[sidewinder]

Desana should have asked which species seem to be the most difficult to raise from birth in captivity or something like that. As it is the question has too many variables for any useful answer.

etb99,

That is the question, worded differently, that desana asked. Here it is again:

"can anyone post a list of mantids that seem to have the highest mortality rates as nymphs..."

Please note the "seem to have".

A certain someone decided to over complicate the question and make an indictment against breeders instead.

S-

 

[desana]

etb99,That is the question, worded differently, that desana asked. Here it is again:

"can anyone post a list of mantids that seem to have the highest mortality rates as nymphs..."

Please note the "seem to have".

A certain someone decided to over complicate the question and make an indictment against breeders instead.

S-

i think i shouldnt have asked the question in the first place sorry for all the hassle its caused i meant in general by reading certain ppls posts in the past it seems that some seem to have higher mortality rates up to their second moult and just seem to die whether their are other factors involved with how one keeps the nymphs or whether its part of that certain species of mantids genetics i dont know but ppl have said certain species like europeans or chinese seem to have high death rates during their first couple of days of life. once again sorry for causing the uproar......

 

[sidewinder]

desana,

You should not be sorry for asking a reasonable question. I too would like to hear people's opinion on which mantids are most difficult, for whatever reason, to keep alive from L1 to adulthood.

I apologize for participating in the hijacking of your thread but it bothers me when people with knowledge get overly technical when it is not necessary.

Now let's just hope some people chime in with their thoughts on which mantids are most difficult, for whatever reason, to keep alive from L1 to adulthood.

S-

 

[Headspace]

People are discussing two seperate subjects here.

1. Mortality rates of the insect when it is out in the wild, doing its thing, in its natural habitat.

2. Difficulty of raising it (for whatever reason, such as difficulty mimicing its natural habitat in a closed environment).

The first one is easier to know than the second. The second is never going to be fully proven for every species since every single hobbyist out there is going to tell a different story. Second, and this is coming from my other hobby more so than anything else (my nickname should provide a hint), but people never like broadcasting their mistakes. If you screw up and lose a whole batch of insects, it can be embarassing.

Personally Tenodera are all I've ever raised, and they tend to be problematic for me as nymphs. I lose nearly half, every time I do it. Right now I've got eight all on their 5th instar. The biggest problem has been from them getting killed during their molt.

 

[desana]

desana,You should not be sorry for asking a reasonable question. I too would like to hear people's opinion on which mantids are most difficult, for whatever reason, to keep alive from L1 to adulthood.

I apologize for participating in the hijacking of your thread but it bothers me when people with knowledge get overly technical when it is not necessary.

Now let's just hope some people chime in with their thoughts on which mantids are most difficult, for whatever reason, to keep alive from L1 to adulthood.

S-

dont apologies feel free to hijack. after all thats what these forums are for are they not.plps views and help. but i myself dont like it when you ask a simple question and i apologies for anyone that takes this the wrong way theres no need to get too technical cos it ends up causing all sorts of problems. ive only been around mantids myself for a couple of years before that i had spiders and scorpions but mantids for me are just fantastic im not knocking spiders and scorps by any means but for me if ya wanna see your pet sometime during daylight hours (unless you are nocturnal) then its no point having nocturnal pets. thats just my view. although i still like other inverts as far as the missus is concerned anything that has fangs , can sting and produce venom it dosnt get over the front doorstep (unless its the mother inlaw LOL! . o dear hope i havnt started another war by saying that LOL!.