origin of Phyllocrania stock

[grob]

Anyone know where the Phyllocrania paradoxa that are in culture in the US are originally from? I see they range over much of Africa, but where do ours come from?

When they were brought into culture and who brought them in?

Or have they been imported several times over the years and it's difficult to trace the stock?

Thanks, --rob

 

[Bug Trader]

They actually come by the ooth regularly from Europe.

 

[Reptiliatus]

I am getting some wild collected nymphs this week from a friend who received wild collected ooths from Madagascar.

 

[Collin s]

is there a lot of species from madagascar?

 

[Reptiliatus]

is there a lot of species from madagascar?

Of mantis in general? Ghost mantids (Phyllocrania paradoxa) are a single species that has a wide range including South Eastern Africa and Madagascar. There are a few other species of mantis that also live in Madagascar too, yes.

 

[grob]

They actually come by the ooth regularly from Europe.

Interesting. Are they captive bred there, or infused now and then with wild collected ootheca? I wonder how many generations have been maintained in captivity?

I am getting some wild collected nymphs this week from a friend who received wild collected ooths from Madagascar.

Neat! I wonder if the Pyllocrania vary much over their range? Can you tell an Ivory Coast ghost from a South African one?

 

[mantid_mike]

I was wondering the exact same thing last night.

 

[mantid_mike]

I am getting some wild collected nymphs this week from a friend who received wild collected ooths from Madagascar.

Awesome. Hopefully you get a whole new generation going here so we can mix them with our captive bred stock.

 

[patrickfraser]

There is no way to really tell where they came from or how long ago they entered into culture. I have had them for a long time (who knows how many generations, I stopped counting) and have received stock from different sources. I trade for different stock once in a while to try to keep it fresh, BUT...who knows what stock is actually from where? I would say I have "my" stock, as I have mixed and matched through the years.

 

[aychen222]

ere is no way to really tell where they came from or how long ago they entered into culture. I have had them for a long time (who knows how many generations, I stopped counting) and have received stock from different sources. I trade for different stock once in a while to try to keep it fresh, BUT...who knows what stock is actually from where? I would say I have "my" stock, as I have mixed and matched through the years.

The P.F. special.

 

[grob]

There is no way to really tell where they came from or how long ago they entered into culture. I have had them for a long time (who knows how many generations, I stopped counting) and have received stock from different sources. I trade for different stock once in a while to try to keep it fresh, BUT...who knows what stock is actually from where? I would say I have "my" stock, as I have mixed and matched through the years.

That's great, Patrick! How long is a long time roughly? 5, 10, 20 years?

And having raised your own stock for so many years, would you say there's something that characterizes your stock?

Have you noticed any changes in your stock over the years?

Sorry to pepper you with questions but I really want to get a feel for the history of mantis culture, especially for Phyllocrania. I didn't even know there was a mantis-raising subculture until last year. Now I don't know how I could have overlooked these adorable little guys for so long!

 

[patrickfraser]

I just started 2 years ago when i joined the forum. Not long at all. Nothing makes them special, really, except I try to breed for greens. There are probably more people here with longer lines of ghosts than my stock. I just can't say for sure the original origin of my stock, other than I know for sure I got some pairs from Precarious at one point.

 

[grob]

That's cool. Any luck getting more greens?

I have big plans to select for all kinds of things, giant ghosts, micro ghosts, green ghosts, white ghosts.

I know the colors are environmentally determined, but the mechanisms underlying the color determination are under genetic control, and one could imagine getting some with broken color change systems that come out all one or a few colors. Artificial selection is a fun toy.

It's all of course in the "pipe dream" stage for me still. My Phyllocrania empire consists of six nymphs so far...

I know for some recently cultured species you can trace their origin to one person collecting one ootheca. What I'd like to know is are strains able to persist for tens of years or do they crash and have to be replaced or supplimented with wild caught ones?

 

[Tony C]

That's cool. Any luck getting more greens?

I have big plans to select for all kinds of things, giant ghosts, micro ghosts, green ghosts, white ghosts.

I know the colors are environmentally determined, but the mechanisms underlying the color determination are under genetic control, and one could imagine getting some with broken color change systems that come out all one or a few colors. Artificial selection is a fun toy.

It's all of course in the "pipe dream" stage for me still. My Phyllocrania empire consists of six nymphs so far...

Were you by chance a ball python fan before discovering mantids?

 

[grob]

Were you by chance a ball python fan before discovering mantids?

Haha, well, a little. I had one when I was a kid.

Do you think Phyllocrania is poised to become the ball python of the insect world? I hope so.

Seems like the last reptile show I went to was like 80% ball pythons in a wide range of flavors. The rest was a rainbow of corn and king snakes. Have ball pythons dominated the herp world like they seem to have?

 

[Tony C]

Do you think Phyllocrania is poised to become the ball python of the insect world? I hope so.

I hope not. I had my fill of morph madness and fad-chasing in the reptile world. There is plenty of natural beauty in the world without trying to breed for abnormal colors and deformities.

 

[Bug Trader]

I will stick to keeping them in their natural form, why people want to line breed and tweek the colors, size and any other mutations when we are so limited to genetic material here is beyond me. After all the way its going many species will be gone from the wild and I'd like to know I atleast have a natural representation of them long established in the hobby.

 

[grob]

I can appreciate your perspective, but for me part of the fun of raising generations of something is seeing the amazing variety that can emerge over time.

I remember going to the fair and seeing two buildings each filled with a huge variety of pigeons and chickens. All of them came from jungle fowl and rock doves. Think of the huge variety of dogs and cats, both also from one species. I used to work at an orchid nursery and we were really excited to see the variety that came out of one cross. Now I grow african violets from seed and each is like a lottery ticket, you don't know what it will look like until it blooms. Genetics and artificial selection are really interesting and fun.

Plus I think it's really great to get one species' culture down really well and see them flourish and spread in captivity. Even if they didn't vary much at all after many generations Phyllocrania are very interesting, I would be glad to just be able to produce them for eveyone to enjoy.

It's a matter of taste, and interest, I guess. Certainly with 2,000+ species of mantids there's enough natural beauty to explore. But there's a great potential within each species that I find really interesting.

 

[Bug Trader]

So you speak of species reintroduction but isnt one of the MUSTS in this to be a very natural and untampered genetic material? I have quite a bit of knowledge in this area, probably argued or debated it with many people atleast far more than anyone on this forum. Now on to getting a species established in captivity, dont you need to be able to manage your lines and track them? How do you do this with an inbred species? And do you think your science experiements are going to replace the natural selection? The only way you will create less demand on wild caught is to collect, breed and establish the natural variation of them.