Poll: Do Mantids Feel Pain?

[Andredesz]

Hello Everyone,

I am new to this hobby, but in my short experience I have witnessed the deaths of several mantid pets. Their life spans are short enough that if we acquire them as adults, we may only have a few months with them. I am not an entomology student, but I imagine there are some on these boards. I know there are many folks here for whom insect rearing is a hobby, and so I ask the following poll question knowing your experience will inform your choice.

I've noticed the same signs in mantids that are passing, they stop eating, they lose movement in certain areas, they just slow down as logic would imply. But anyone who has raised a mantid knows that those eyes follow you, and there seems to be intelligence there. For these reasons I am always conflicted about whether to allow a pet to pass on its own, or whether to use the fabled "freezer" method to end their suffering. but the question is, are they suffering? Do they physically feel pain the way we do; are they self-aware enough to think, "It hurts! Why can't I just die already" or maybe "I hope my mammal food provider does not kill me"?

So maybe a science-minded board member could hip us to whether there is scientific evidence that might inform us about the topic. Because I bet I'm not the only hobbyist who has wondered.



Carol

 

[hibiscusmile]

Dear God, thanks Carol, sorry I read the post, now every time I have to freeze, I shall remember this... you people just rip my heart out without any concern for the pain I am in .

On a brighter note, of course they feel pain, Gods creatures are all made the same. They get hungry, they get rest, they bleed, and they die, whats not to feel? If you accidently trap their little foot in the lid when closing it (not that I have done this) they pull and pull to try and get it out and thats how u know you trapped it.

 

[The_Asa]

Don't believe they can feel pain exactly as we do, but there must be some kind of sensory management there that at leasts give an impression of pain

 

[Headspace]

They process sensory input but they do it differently. You are not dealing with an organism that has much in common with you. While the head movement and tendency to "track" moving objects may appear to be a sign of intelligence, ask yourself this--how much of it is our tendency to anthropomorphize them?

Invertebrates have a nervous system that is markedly different from our own. It is decentralized and oriented around each component being able to operate independently of the others, instead of our central nervous system (CNS). When we feel pain, we always feel it in the same place--the somatosensory cortex of our brains. Your emotional reaction is processed inside your limbic system and it is not until the message reaches your frontal lobe do you comprehend "I am in pain."

Mantids and other insects do not have such sophisticated hardware (wetware?). Being able to process sensory input and react from it does not equate to feeling pain the same way as humans or for that matter vertibrates in general. While I am always concerned that they are uncomfortable, I am not under the illusion that they are feeling emotions. There is no evidence that they do. They react to sensory input, much like the computer science concept of a finite state machine. In a sense, they have much in common with robots--although they are arguably much more complex than any robot ever designed, and having the ability to reproduce, far more advanced.

 

[PhilinYuma]

Dear God, thanks Carol, sorry I read the post, now every time I have to freeze, I shall remember this... you people just rip my heart out without any concern for the pain I am in .On a brighter note, of course they feel pain, Gods creatures are all made the same. They get hungry, they get rest, they bleed, and they die, whats not to feel? If you accidently trap their little foot in the lid when closing it (not that I have done this) they pull and pull to try and get it out and thats how u know you trapped it.

Rebecca: I have not in the past, nor shall I now, have the temerity to contradict you, and if you say that mantises feel pain in Ohio, then that's good enough for me, but down here, in still primitive Arizona, I am glad to say that they do not.

You may have noticed that if you burn you finger on the stove, you pull your finger away before you register pain. This is because the signal is mediated through the spinal cord, through something called the "somatic reflex arc".

For this reflex to occur, there must be nerve endings in the skin, which is true of most vertebrates, but in insects and other inverts the epidermis is often replaced by a chitinous exoskeleton that contains no nerve endings and does not register touch, let alone pain. It seems pointless to get into nociceptors and the neocortortex, if only because they are well outside of my area of expertise, but I hear so much confused thinking on this topic that the following observations may be of help:

1) Insects can have an aversive reaction to noxious stimuli. This is not the same as "feeling pain". Some rap music has the same effect on me, and I move away or turn it off. The same is true if I move to the shade on a hot day, but in neither case do I experience "pain" in its usual sense.

2)Pain as we understand it is a survival mechanism for animals that can retain a memory of the stimulus. It helps us to remember to avoid that stimulus again. Inverts don't have a "brain" in the same sense as vertebrates do, and will not remember to avoid the stimulus. The human brain, interestingly, does not register pain; a needle passed through the cerebrum of a conscious patient will not cause pain. "Headaches" are experienced in the scalp.

3) We should be glad that they don't feel pain (at least in Arizona), since our mantises spend their time eating other insects and each other, alive.

4) Insects are "cold blooded" and become less active as the temperature drops, which is why we put flies in the fridge. Even mammals tend to become numb and go to sleep when exposed to freezing temperatures. Unless the temperature is quickly raised, they just don't wake up.

So there you have it. Send all your mantises down to AZ, and I'll ensure that they feel no pain!

 

[Headspace]

Insects are "cold blooded" and become less active as the temperature drops, which is why we put flies in the fridge. Even mammals tend to become numb and go to sleep when exposed to freezing temperatures. Unless the temperature is quickly raised, they just don't wake up.

Will I dream?

 

[idolomantis]

I don't think they're going to have a good feeling if you pull any limp out.

When my cats had ripped one open i nearly could feel the pain myself.

 

[PhilinYuma]

Will I dream?

Indeed you will, Headspace:

Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.

Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments

Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices,

That, if I then had waked after long sleep,

Will make me sleep again: and then, in dreaming,

The clouds methought would open and show riches

Ready to drop upon me, that, when I waked,

I cried to dream again'

Except, of course, that you will never wake to cry to dream again!

 

[Morpheus uk]

I let all my insects die naturally, if they have mis moulted and need to be put down they either get fed to something bigger or get bricked, yepo squished, far better than freezing them to death, squishing them quick is an instant death

 

[shorty]

If you accidently trap their little foot in the lid when closing it (not that I have done this) they pull and pull to try and get it out and thats how u know you trapped it.

Phil and Headspace hit the nail on the head and saved me a lot of typing! Thanks guys. But I'd like to reply to what Rebecca said above. Of course they pull on their leg to try to get out of being trapped. Every single living organism on the planet, well multicellular at least, reacts in ways to avoid death. However, this does not mean they feel pain in any way. Like was already stated, massively different nervous systems. Us humans tend to anthropomorphize, or personify things. We look for patterns in everything that relates to us in someway or another without even thinking about it. I mean, when you do tear a leg off of a mantis, do they whither in extreme pain like if we lost a leg? No, they just walk away and go back to their business. And idolomantis, cats are mammals, and having mammalian nervous systems, they probably do feel pain in some sort. Even then, it is probably different than pain as we know it. Basically, mantids do have senses, just not like we know. They're pretty much very complex organic robots, as are all insects. Interesting thread though!

Will I dream?

2010 reference?

 

[hibiscusmile]

:lol: I knew you guys would react! Sorry, and yes you are right, (Phil)our mantis in Ohio have much feeling, and (Shorty) when they get their legs free, they lick them like the dogs does . (Idol) I feel it to, u did good! (Morpheus) I to have been known to quickly squish them when the necessity demands it, I do not like the feeling I get when a digit is freezing on me so I sometimes think of how I feel and that is really how I relate to everything around me, whether they feel the same or not is inconsequencial to me, because I only know how I feel and the Golden Rule I follow is "do unto others, (things, or insects, mammals, books ) as I would have them do unto me. Now before u say it, I do think a quick squish when I am about to pass on is preferable than months of suffering, not that I am asking for that, but u get the picture! ( I do not have a reply to you head space, cause I have to look in dictionary for that long word u used :lol: . I could go on all day, but u guys knew that didn't u? ps, most of the time, especially n warmer months, when I notice one of mine dying, I take them outside and put them on a bush, and I coould get into : yea now they are free and get to smell and all that stuff after being closed up all their lives, but I won't and u can't make me!

 

[sidewinder]

http://www.bugsforthugs.com/2007/06/30/ask...g-or-feel-pain/

S-

 

[The_Asa]

Some rap music has the same effect on me, and I move away or turn it off.

Tru dat :lol: Thanks for clearing things up guys!

 

[Rick]

Sense of pain? Yes. Intelligence? No.

 

[Andredesz]

What an amazingly informative thread. I'm so glad I asked, and so grateful to all those who contributed! Knowing this will add to my peace of mind, and allow me to enjoy this hobby even more. I had a feeling I was projecting human qualities onto my little pets, but now I know that this is natural. Once I witnessed a cricket continue eating its own piece of lettuce while it was being eaten by my mantid, and I guess that should have been a big clue.

Carol A

 

[The_Asa]

Once I witnessed a cricket continue eating its own piece of lettuce while it was being eaten by my mantid, and I guess that should have been a big clue. Carol A

Sounds like something was wrong with your cricket :lol: You'd think they'd still have basic survival mechanics :huh:

 

[Katnapper]

Sounds like something was wrong with your cricket :lol: You'd think they'd still have basic survival mechanics :huh:

Maybe he knew it was all over and a lost cause to fight... so he might as well still enjoy his last meal while he could!

 

[PhilinYuma]

What an amazingly informative thread. I'm so glad I asked, and so grateful to all those who contributed! Knowing this will add to my peace of mind, and allow me to enjoy this hobby even more. I had a feeling I was projecting human qualities onto my little pets, but now I know that this is natural. Once I witnessed a cricket continue eating its own piece of lettuce while it was being eaten by my mantid, and I guess that should have been a big clue. Carol A

Good observation, Carol. An even more extreme example was provided by the French entomologist Jean Fabre at the end of the C19th. He witnessed a hunting wasp paralyze a bee and then, as is usual with the species, induce the paralyzed bee to disgorge its nectar which she licked up. As she was doing this, a mantis seized the wasp and started devouring her abdomen, while she continued to lick up the bee's nectar.

And if I've told this story before, that's OK LOL!

 

[Rick]

I doubt they feel pain the same as we do however they must. If you hurt a mantis it reacts as if in pain but it is obviously different.