Rhombodera (unknown sp. - HELP!) Mating, Ooth

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The female on your thumb looks HUGE!!! I may get Rhombodera one of these days (after I acquire some Blepharopsis though :) )

Keep us posted!!!
Hard to think of something under 4" as big but I've really grown to love the Sphodromantis species, especially viridis (will have ooths and nymphs for sale shortly), and was impressed by their size. Never thought I'd have a shield even bigger. This girl is slightly bigger than my Blue Flash (Sphodromantis sp.) and viridis. Her legs are really sturdy like a Sphodromantis.

I'll PM you about who to contact about Blepharopsis.

 
Hi Henry: Please don't sell your Mystery shield mantids under an unqualified binomial like Rhobodera valida, R. stalii or R. longa. Here's why:

Very often, insect hobbyists make species identifications in the field without sending them off to a museum or university. We have two great aids in doing this. We can compare our specimen with numerous reliable pix on the internet and in books. We can eliminate a lot of species because they don't occur in our locality. I always use this as a "pre scan". For example, I recently caught a gray hairstreak; I am always amazed at how closely their tail and wing extensions look like a head and antennae. The northern southern hairestreak (yep, it exists! Fixsenia favonius) looks a lot like the gray but I could discoun tit because it lives in Canada.

We simply don't have the same amount of accurate photographic examples among mantids and of course, location is no help for C.B. exotics.

Even accepting the above, we should remember that many insects can only be be keyed out by a field biologist to the genus level, sometimes not even that far. IGM 193 is "cf Rhombodera sp", so the committee of systematists, the last word on species I.D., is not even sure of the genus.

If you sell a mantis under the wrong scientific name, there is a good chance that folks with mantids bearing the same name will not be able to cross breed them, or worse, will unknowingly create a hybrid (very unlikely I know), that will further muddy the water.

I think that some members misunderstood Yen's statements. He is saying that he cannot say whether or not your mantis is R. valida, He is not even prepared to say that of his own specimens and is correctly selling them as Rhombodera cf. stalii ("cf" BTW means, roughly, "probably, but you never know"). This is in line with IGM #119, though he can't use the IGM number without a formal "pedigree' Indeed, if you check out their current list, I think that you will find that no Rhombodera species is given an unqualified species name; IGM 199 is "Rhombodera cf longa. This suggests that the genus is under revision, and it is!.

In your case, Henry, you could either sell yours as Rhombodera sp. or send a specimen off to someone like Christian Schwartz or Lars for ID. Without stronger evidence, comparison to the description of the type specimenn at least, it wouldn't even be right to call it Rhombodera cf. valida.

So there you have it. We have been having similar problems with the Creobroter genus, partly because of the idea that a few pix and a concensus, more or less, of members can identify a species. This may be truse for a ghost or Carolina mantis, but we need a little more for rare or look alike speceies.

 
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Hi Henry: Please don't sell your Mystery shield mantids under an unqualified binomial like Rhobodera valida, R. stalii or R. longa...
Well, I'm not setting up a museum exhibit. I'm only using the tentative identification to distinguish these from other available species so when I post people will know it's not stallii or basilis which have been eliminated from the running. Also, Yen didn't say he had any specimens like this to compare with so I'm not sure why you're suggesting I send one to him. He only said there had been discussion on the genus so he didn't know.

Identification is not in my skill set so I turn the community. When posting I would make it clear that this is a tentative ID. Obviously I'm not looking to mislead or rip anyone off (not that you're suggesting that). Just thought others know better than I when it comes to this.

So meybe yoo kin figur it out with all yur fancy book lurnin an such.

hillbilly.jpg


Stats:

Females about 3.6", males about 3.35"

Brown stripe on ventral prothorax

No blue hue on wings

Elongated oothecae

Wide shield

Pink knickers

Gregarious demeanor

Likes long walks on the beach

etc.

You have your mission:

Get on it, soldier! :tank:

Because...

scared-politicians.jpg


 
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No one would think that you would try and fool fellow members, Henry, but you are right about not knowing anything about nomenclature!

You don't need to know anything about the subject to buy and sell ghosts, poppas, wallys, idolos and the other commonplace species that are raised bought and sold every day, but you are offering specimens that, if you have them correctly identified are extreme rarities. These were being raised in Europe around 2006 and the the cultures seemed to collapse due to the fragility of the males. That at least is my understanding; I am not a Rhombodera guy and R.valida has not been available, to my knowledge, since I entered the hobby in 2008. In such a case, it seems to me that it is incumbent upon you to offer a diagnosis based on more than the non-expert guesses of members who have no idea about systematics and have not seen your strain, even if you are not making a museum exhibit.

So how do you identify the little buggers? Here are some thoughts. First Google <rhombodera valida> and check the images. You will see a nice pair of pinned specimens that might help. Alternatively, you may write to the insect curator at Texas A&M. Their listing includes this species, so they may be able to compare one of your specimens with theirs. I suggested sending one to Yen because he may have (I'm not sure) a Chinese dichotomous key to the genus. Have you heard of these keys? If not, I recommend (to everyone) that you buy Jaques Helfer's How to Know the Grasshoppers, Crickets, Cockroaches and their Allies, available inexpensively at Amazon. He has a dichotomous key for the US mantids which is simple to use and will give you a good idea how to "key out" a species.

I can see why you might not want to call what you consider such a special strain Rhombodera sp. (even I have some of those!) but not want to give a misleading species name. I am sure that you would make yr doubts clear, but I am equally sure that some sellers of the next generation would adverise them simply as R. valida. There is another way out used by entreneurs and that is to give them an English, non scientific name, like "blue flash". Given yr description of you specimens, I would suggest "Rhombodera 'pink knickers'" :D

 
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No one would think that you would try and fool fellow members, Henry, but you are right about not knowing anything about nomenclature!
I know nothing about the keys, but I did once lock myself out of the house. OK, it happened more than once. But that was a long time ago (last week :whistling: ).

I'll put my effort into getting them out there and someone more experienced than myself (i.e. you) can do the leg work. I'll just advertise them as "Big Green Bugz!", because I don't even know they are Rhombodera other than being told that, which doesn't really meet your scientifical standards.

All I know is...

I just love me some bugs!

the-8-greatest-bugs-bunny-music-gags-ever-tv-episode.jpg


KEY: That's you in the helmet. And me flashing the pearly whites.

(Note the pink knickers.)

 
contact me to on the thistles as well as I am interested and maybe some shields down the road!

 
Good find!

I was told these are Indonesian. Here is my female as a sub...

Rhombo_2552-sm.jpg


Distinct brown band.

As an adult the band isn't as distinct, more orange/brown, and here is where the plot thickens.

Below are comparison photos of my Rhombodera [A] and my friend Mylo's [B] that he sent for breeding. After close examination I think they may be different species.

At first glance they look very similar.

Rhombocomp01.jpg


But a closer look at the underside of the thorax shows quite a bit of difference. I took the following shots under as close as possible to the same lighting conditions.

Rhombocomp02.jpg


And the wings are very different. Mantis B has a deeper mauve on her abdomen and it appears this extends to the veins on the wings. Her wings are also a different hue of green. Is that the blue tinge Yen noted on the Malaysia species? I was told these were Indonesian and they do have the red wings Yen noted. Even the male. So they are probably not Malaysian.

Rhombocomp03.jpg


The wings also fold to opposite sides. I'd imagine that can vary among the same species. Anyone know for sure?

So my question is can these differences be accounted for within the same species raised under different conditions or from different regions? Or do Mylo and I just happen to have different species significantly larger than the average Rhombodera? We each got our nymphs from different sources.

The good news is my male is from the same source as my female. Should be no issue with producing fertile ooths. I'm not sure if Mylo's ooths will hatch or if they are different species that are close enough to mix.

What say the experts???

 
Wing folding is a no-no, take note next time one flaps its wings: Each individual can fold its wings either way.

I think the Rhombodera genus is at a big disadvantage geographically to be indentified. There are so many sub-regions where the genus is found, and I'm sure there are many more species than we know of. Think of how many islands there are in and around Indonesia.

Henry, your species looks like a hybrid between a R. basalis and R. stalii. With so many closely related but geographically distinct groups, who knows what is going on! Too many grey areas...

 
Ah. I remember the thread that Gripen cites, and contributed a post to it. Here are a cuppla thoughts:

So far as I know, both Rhombodera basalis and R. valida occur in the mountains that separate Indonesia from Malaya in the island of Borneo. This is a political boundry, like that between AZ and Mexico, rather than a geographical one like that between AZ and CA, so there is no reason that the "Giant Mayaysian Shield Mantis shouldn't exist in Indonesia, as well. In short, the country of origin is not necessarily a good guide to speciation.

Increasingly, as with the Odonata and a number of other orders, species are differentiated morphologically by their sexual organs, the thinking being that if they do not match, successful copulation will be unlikely. So far as i know, Christian's statement that "basalis=valida" is based on such a consuideration. A year later though, Yen was still not completely convinced: http://asianmantisnetwork.net/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=134&sid=b417d0b10321d2368b1ebfc812609bf9

Some of the observations and many of the excellent photos here are really interesting and praiseworthy but cannot, by their very nature, yield a diagnosis of Henry's mantids beyond the genus level. Only a trained systematist can do that, and at the moment, and these things move slowly, there might not be an unquestioned diagnosis. Although I joked about the possible name for this variety, I was serious when I suggested that it should be given a common name like that used for the "blue flash". If you provide it in this thread, Henry, when you distribute it, everyone will be able to refer to the forum search engine and get a prety good idea of what they are getting. Any other views on this?

 
Funny cartoons Henry!

Thanks for the wonderful pics comparing the two. Dr. Roger Roy from France would be the best person to give you the answer. But you will need to send him an adult pair for ID. He responds better to the snail mail than email so write him a letter like you write a love letter explaining your purpose and that will trigger his interest. I will send you his address.

 
UPDATE:

My female laid her first ooth! Woo-hoo!

Here she is posing with the fruit of her labors...

Rhomboooth_5715-sm.jpg


Slightly different shape to her ooth [A] from the one laid by Mylo's female [B]. I don't think there is more difference there than could exist within a species.

What say you? :huh:

Rhombooothcomp_5718-sm.jpg


 
Got hatch today - just around 50 pcs

Nymphs are total diffrent than basalis , fusca or longa

Its sp. valida :)

 
Henry, your species looks like a hybrid between a R. basalis and R. stalii. With so many closely related but geographically distinct groups, who knows what is going on! Too many grey areas...
Thanks for the wonderful pics comparing the two.
Got hatch today - just around 50 pcs

Nymphs are total diffrent than basalis , fusca or longa

Its sp. valida :)
Well, the ooth hatched today! 40 days incubation.

And here's the kicker...

It hatched 357 nymphs!!!

I don't know if that's normal, but I thought they would never stop coming out! Took over 3 hours to get the bulk of them out. Stragglers are still dropping. So I doubt these are the same species that hatched only 50, Justyna.

40 in each cup except for the front two that have 54 and 62 respectively. That's how I know how many dropped. I put them into the cups one at a time. :eek:nline2long: Just found 1 more a few minutes ago.

RhomboH_6765-sm.jpg


I sure hope people want these!

I spotted the hatch with only 2 nymphs dangling so I had plenty of time to take photos and video. Here is a sample. Much more to come.

They come out with a black skull cap in place. It comes off and remains connected to the harness.

RhomboH_6718-sm.jpg


RhomboH_6744-sm.jpg


RhomboH_6741-sm.jpg


 
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