S. limbata breeding 2009

[yeatzee]

I just found a half pink female (abdomen down she is pink including wings). She is the biggest limbata I've personally seen before, and by far the "prettiest".

Fingers crossed I find a male or she's already mated. I'll post pictures later

 

[kamakiri]

Take a look (or a pic) of the base of the forewings. I've noticed that sometimes males leave puncture marks there from their femoral spines from hanging on tightly. The marks are not always there or obvious on a female even if mated. So it's not a completely reliable indicator.

PM me if you need more males.

 

[yeatzee]

Thanks for the tip! I'll take a look at her with my camera hopefully today

edit: CONGRATS ON THE 1000 POST!!!!

 

[kamakiri]

Update:

2 more females laid ooths. The dark green female made one this morning on the cloth lid. Pics to follow. Also the darker gray/pink female. I didn't expect the green one to lay so soon after mating, less than 19 hours from disconnecting (could be as little as 11 hours). Still no 2nd ooths from any of the females. All 10 females that were collected have been mated. Only one of those did not lay yet and probably will today or tomorrow.

 

[kamakiri]

*Big* Update!

Lo and behold: One of the males molted yesterday with crinkle wings! This is a male from the same batch/source from Arkanis that was having the problems. His mother was Cherisse and a 'normal' winged male from the same batch which had the crinkles. I watched the molt and saw him turn and hang properly to pump-up the wings. When I checked on him later yesterday...they hadn't fully pumed up despite a problem free molt. Recently, I've had 4 wild caught males and two of his brothers molt with normal wings in the same conditions and the same 16 oz deli tub size with cloth lids and a foam stopper in the center. Ambient humidity has been in the mid to high 50% range. Temps were in the 68 to 76 F range. One other deviation seems to be a curled antenna.

While I thought the experiment was a total failure, there is a glimmer of producing some results. And I am leaning towards it being a recessive genetic condition. I will study and produce for at least another generation if I am lucky enough.

Other update news is that the first female (yellow) adult molted this morning or overnight from Mandy's 1st ooth. I now suspect that the size of some of these mantises is partly genetic, as Mandy and Sandra are from different genetic stock which were from Paul (ismart) earlier this year. Those adults were notably smaller for both males and females. This female is petite like Mandy was, and I would not be surprised if she develops the faint blue hue in the eyes that Mandy had...I have not seen that color in the yellow females wild-caught or bred from California stock.

It is possible that this supports Christian's comment in another thread that limbata may actually be two species. I hope to cross the two groups once the crinkle breeding is done and I have some ooths.

 

[PhilinYuma]

Oops! Sorry, double post.

 

[PhilinYuma]

Oops, Oops! Sorry, sorry, triple post!

 

[PhilinYuma]

*Big* Update!Lo and behold: One of the males molted yesterday with crinkle wings! This is a male from the same batch/source from Arkanis that was having the problems. His mother was Cherisse and a 'normal' winged male from the same batch which had the crinkles. I watched the molt and saw him turn and hang properly to pump-up the wings. When I checked on him later yesterday...they hadn't fully pumed up despite a problem free molt. Recently, I've had 4 wild caught males and two of his brothers molt with normal wings in the same conditions and the same 16 oz deli tub size with cloth lids and a foam stopper in the center. Ambient humidity has been in the mid to high 50% range. Temps were in the 68 to 76 F range. One other deviation seems to be a curled antenna.

While I thought the experiment was a total failure, there is a glimmer of producing some results. And I am leaning towards it being a recessive genetic condition. I will study and produce for at least another generation if I am lucky enough.

Other update news is that the first female (yellow) adult molted this morning or overnight from Mandy's 1st ooth. I now suspect that the size of some of these mantises is partly genetic, as Mandy and Sandra are from different genetic stock which were from Paul (ismart) earlier this year. Those adults were notably smaller for both males and females. This female is petite like Mandy was, and I would not be surprised if she develops the faint blue hue in the eyes that Mandy had...I have not seen that color in the yellow females wild-caught or bred from California stock.

It is possible that this supports Christian's comment in another thread that limbata may actually be two species. I hope to cross the two groups once the crinkle breeding is done and I have some ooths.

Kamakiri:

Your persistence and attention to detail in this study, which is almost certainly the longest of its kind on this forum, is truly impressive. You mention, though, that you had thought that your experiment "was a total failure." This suggests to me that you had already decided what you wanted the outcome to be when you started this experiment, rather than conducting it to see what is true. I think that you have provided a convincing demonstration of the facts of this issue.

You suggest that your discovery of a male that eclosed with a wing defect may support Christian's contention that S. limbata may [my emphasis] be actually two species. I'm sure that Christian will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that as a systematist, he would "split" the species on morphological grounds rather than on the presence of an occasional aberration. Also, if your mantids are producing offspring when crossed in the F2 generation, they can be considered to be of the same species, though one type may have "transitional " characteristics.

Actually, Grant, this issue has been decided over a century ago by Mendel. A recessive phenotype like "male crinkle wings" (let's assume that it is lethal in females) should appear in 25% of the population*. If this form represents substantially less than that, as you appear to have demonstrated, it is not. A discussion of the appearance of critters or plants with a double recessive genotype (demonstrated in the phenotype) is readily available on the Internet. There is no particular reason why you should believe me, but I do suggest that you check it out.

And again, I am truly impressed by your rigor.

* And before someone goes off at a tangent, I am referring to the male population, of course.

 

[kamakiri]

Phil, Thanks, but before we go off on a tangent, I view the size/species issue and the crinkle wing/genetics issue as separate.

1. The ismart source of mantises helps only prove that the condition is probably not environmental. The 'new' wild caught specimens also help to prove the 'not environmental' thinking.

2. The ismart mantises are noticably smaller. The size and source issue will be tested separately, though the two 'experiments' may use the same control group or comparisons.

By failure, I only mean that I was not able to keep the main subjects of the crinkle test alive. Mainly Vanessa, who was mated with a crinkle-wing, and also the other pairs from the Arkanis sourced group as a whole. While Cherisse was part of the whole attempt, loss of her sisters was the main failure.

Hope that clarifies my intent.

 

[MantidLord]

Phil, Thanks, but before we go off on a tangent, I view the size/species issue and the crinkle wing/genetics issue as separate. 1. The ismart source of mantises helps only prove that the condition is probably not environmental. The 'new' wild caught specimens also help to prove the 'not environmental' thinking.

2. The ismart mantises are noticably smaller. The size and source issue will be tested separately, though the two 'experiments' may use the same control group or comparisons.

By failure, I only mean that I was not able to keep the main subjects of the crinkle test alive. Mainly Vanessa, who was mated with a crinkle-wing, and also the other pairs from the Arkanis sourced group as a whole. While Cherisse was part of the whole attempt, loss of her sisters was the main failure.

Hope that clarifies my intent.

I agree with phil that you have amazing dedication. Good luck in your experiment whatever the outcome may be.

 

[kamakiri]

After watching some of my previously kept limbata girls searching for a place to lay, I decided that I'd try to use twigs that are closer in diameter to what I found in the wild. The rose twig that I found the ooth on was just over 3/32" in diameter and was found on a section that was nearly horizontal. Most of the branches that I was using in the critter keepers for laying were in the 1/2" to 1" range, and mostly diagonal in the 30 to 40 degree range. So with the female (Athena) that I found mating last week, I decide to give her the options of the larger branches that I used to use, some fake flower/foliage/stems, and a few thin twigs both diagonal and horizontal directly mounted to the cage top with twist ties.

As I type, she is laying on the horizontal twig twist-tied to the cage top. I'll be giving all the females similar options to get a sample set of data.

Athena made another ooth overnight. A little smaller than the first, probably due to being kept at room temps and crickets were mostly fed supervised as not to eat the ooth in her enclosure. That's a 17 day interval from the first ootheca. It was laid in front of and touching the first ooth.

Because she should have used more of her stored sperm than any of the other females I have, I'm probably going to breed Athena with the new crinkle winged male.

For the ooths that were not laid on a cloth lid of a deli tub, 5 of 7 were laid on horizontal or near horizontal surfaces. 3 of those were on twigs provided. The other two were laid on a plastic rail that borders the cage top opening/lid. One of those two is right next to a twig that runs parallel to that rail.

For the two that were not horizontal or near to it, on was on a section of twig that is at about 45 degrees on the underside laid going downslope. The other ooth was laid vertically on a wall but started on the plastic lid and jogs over the lip of the clear wall to finish. Really curious to see what that female does with her 2nd ooth.

All of the females in a cloth lid deli tub with a diagonal plastic grid ladder laid on the cloth lid. Three of those so far.

 

[kamakiri]

Gwyn laid an ooth this weekend after mating last weekend. She didn't use the lid-mounted twig, but chose a plastic rail that borders the perimeter of the door. Same type of place that Mandy put her two ooths.

Gwyn (gray female) made her 2nd ooth overnight, only two weeks after her 1st. It is also butting the 1st ooth, laid in the opposite direction. The 'start' ends are touching.

 

[kamakiri]

Most of the wild caught females have laid their 2nd ooths. Preference seems to have swayed to the lid-mounted twigs for this round. One of the wild caught adult males died.

 

[kamakiri]

Gwyn (Gray) was re-mated by one of the red-black males (found as a subadult) last night. Couldn't find him this morning though they were enclosed in a small room. :huh: He must have gone under the door. My wife found him just now on the kitchen ceiling! :lol:

The other surprise is that Gwyn was found this morning laying her 3rd ooth. The strange thing is that of all the limbata females so far, this is the first one that does not have a consistent shape or look to the previous ooths from the same female. This one happened to be much wider than the previous two.

 

[kamakiri]

The crinkle experiment is on! A wild caught subadult female, now adult was mated to the crinkle-winged male Wednesday overnight. She produced a small ooth on the cloth lid this morning! I used this female since she was definitely not mated in the wild, and is not part of the same population where the crinkle wings originated.

To further support the genetic cause hypothesis, none of the Mandy or Sandra mantises (from ismart>hypoponera>w.c. AZ) exhibit the crinkle winged males, but the one male that did have crinkle wings is from Cherisse (from arkanis ooth>w.c. female CA) who was a sister of 'original' crinkle winged males that I raised. The two groups were hatched and raised in the same environmental conditions, and misted (unlike the first batch of limbata which were raised without misting).

Next, I'll have this male mated to one of his siblings, and following that, one of the Mandy or Sandra progeny. Probably one of the green females, since the pinks and yellows are being used for color-fixing 'experiments'.

 

[Ntsees]

The crinkle experiment is on! A wild caught subadult female, now adult was mated to the crinkle-winged male Wednesday overnight. She produced a small ooth on the cloth lid this morning! I used this female since she was definitely not mated in the wild, and is not part of the same population where the crinkle wings originated.To further support the genetic cause hypothesis, none of the Mandy or Sandra mantises (from ismart>hypoponera>w.c. AZ) exhibit the crinkle winged males, but the one male that did have crinkle wings is from Cherisse (from arkanis ooth>w.c. female CA) who was a sister of 'original' crinkle winged males that I raised. The two groups were hatched and raised in the same environmental conditions, and misted (unlike the first batch of limbata which were raised without misting).

Next, I'll have this male mated to one of his siblings, and following that, one of the Mandy or Sandra progeny. Probably one of the green females, since the pinks and yellows are being used for color-fixing 'experiments'.

Nice experiment going on. It would be nice to know if the crinkle-wing was due to environment (no humidity/moisture) or genes or both. I say this because it could be any factor. Not enough moisture will not allow the wing to spread evenly. Likewise, it could be genes because it has been seen in fruitflies. Another interesting thing was your other color-fixing experiment. I think it might be possible but you're probably going to have to do that for a some generations. I don't know about you but for me, I don't let new genes (mating my mantids with wild caught specimens) come into the experiment because these new genes might throw the experiment back. Then again, you'll have to deal with imbreeding if there are any. But to know the answer, you'll just have to keep at it like what I'm doing.

 

[kamakiri]

Update:

Released a couple of females last week, but picked up another two today...Gray with faint yellow wings for the first one and Green ventral and gray dorsal for the 2nd one. Spotted over a dozen green females, but let them be.

The wild collected ooth started hatching on 11/20. Just shy of 9 weeks from when I found it. I think it was not more than 2 days laid, judging by the light color. A three day old ooth will be dark brown. 60-70 guestimated/loose count from a relatively small ooth.

Nice experiment going on. It would be nice to know if the crinkle-wing was due to environment (no humidity/moisture) or genes or both. I say this because it could be any factor. Not enough moisture will not allow the wing to spread evenly. Likewise, it could be genes because it has been seen in fruitflies. Another interesting thing was your other color-fixing experiment. I think it might be possible but you're probably going to have to do that for a some generations. I don't know about you but for me, I don't let new genes (mating my mantids with wild caught specimens) come into the experiment because these new genes might throw the experiment back. Then again, you'll have to deal with imbreeding if there are any. But to know the answer, you'll just have to keep at it like what I'm doing.

I feel that the environmental probability for the wings is greatly reduced since this last batch.

Unfortunately, I am aware that the color fixing will take many generations to show results. My last batch had very few individuals that survived to lay ooths. Now that I have more specimen-pets to choose from and cross...I hope to have some results by pushing for 2 to 3 generations per year. The good news is that the offspring seem to quickly take after their parents...the results so far look promising to me.

 

[kamakiri]

UPDATE:

No real news on the krinkle front...except that there aren't any randomly showing up from the Mandy/Sandy AZ sourced mantises. There are a total of 3 ooths from the local female mated with my only krinkle offsping from 2009. Ooths are laid on 11/6, 12/5, and 1/7/10. Some should be hatching from the 11/6 ooth within the next two weeks, if all goes well.

There is finally a female which resembles her mother Mandy down to the tinge of green-blue in the eyes ('Yvette' Ma2F3y). Several of the selected tan-beige nymphs are showing yellow wings without the eye color. There is also finally a male from the entire AZ group that is not showing the typical 'pepper' speckling of the fore wings.

 

[yen_saw]

Nice log Grant. Thanks for sharing the info i enjoy reading it.

 

[kamakiri]

This is probably going to get its own thread later, but I thought I'd mention it here first.

It seems that mantises hatched from a particular wild caught female (YM) are noticeably non-cannibalistic. I was packing some of the free mantises that I've been shipping, and at the bottom of Pot/ooth YM2-2, I noticed that there were no casualties even 4 days after start of hatching. Now I know that I *try* to keep the pots well fed from day 2, but inevitably with limbata there are usually some that succumb to the proximity of tubmates at even 50+ per 32 oz pot. I can usually keep 20-25 in one of those up to about L4 without any problems...but never this many. Anyway, when I got back home I went and checked on the pots from the previous ooth (YM1-1, YM1-2, YM1-3) and while I did give many of those siblings away, the head count in those 3 pots are higher than the other pots of similar age. Perhaps double on average at the L4/L5 range where I normally start to separate.

Makes me wonder if it's genetic and all the characteristics that could be tested for...

I hope to eventually have more to report on this subject.