Slowing the growth of a male Orchid Mantis

[happy1892]

Gripen thank you for telling me about that newsletter!

 

[happy1892]

maybe after many many gens but for a hobbyist not a problem.

I think it would take a long time to have problems from inbreeding.

 

[patrickfraser]

I'm hoping that article is wrong for the orchids. I don't want to raise any eunuchs.

 

[frogparty]

yeah well thats the thing. some times mixing stocks can create smaller/weaker nymphs.

I think you'll find that the opposite is more true. Line breeding is fine, but if you are working with animals from unknown locality you can't prove locality or subspecies status and the best thing to do is to diversify bloodlines.

People who don't believe inverts are affected by inbreeding are only looking short term. Long term there are negative reprocussions

 

[gripen]

here is an example: there are for all intensive purposes 2 stocks of idolos. the Kenyan and the Tanzanian. precarious reported they would not even mate let alone produce viable ooths. that is why the IGM system was created. the IGM system helps prevent people from crossing to stocks. as a hobbyist you will not run into inbreeding problems period. it is way worse to cross breed than to inbreed.

 

[CoolMantid]

here is an example: there are for all intensive purposes 2 stocks of idolos. the Kenyan and the Tanzanian. precarious reported they would not even mate let alone produce viable ooths. that is why the IGM system was created. the IGM system helps prevent people from crossing to stocks. as a hobbyist you will not run into inbreeding problems period. it is way worse to cross breed than to inbreed.

There are 2 species of Idolos? Which is the more common species in stock or in the mantis hobby?

 

[gripen]

be careful there are to stocks but not two different species.

 

[CoolMantid]

oh i got, thanks!

 

[gripen]

no problem

 

[frogparty]

If you know the locality, then great. But line breeding is NOT THE SAME AS INBREEDING

 

[gripen]

inbreeding is breeding mantids from the same ooth. this method is fine and will work for generations.

 

[CoolMantid]

But after a long period of time wont inbreeding eventually be unsucessful or have complications?!

 

[massaman]

inbreeding will have negative effects on the future generations if its done continuously and which will result in weak or infertile species or will have other disasterous effects!

 

[frogparty]

inbreeding is breeding mantids from the same ooth. this method is fine and will work for generations.

And you wonder why it's hard to keep this species going without the addition of WC animals

 

[PhilinYuma]

Yes indeed. When he was still talking to us, Christian made the same point on this forum, and it applies to insects generally. Normally, I suspect, when a stock begins to deteriorate, it is due to poor husbandry*; perhaps the colony is missing an essential element in its diet, so

I don't think that DeShawn is talking about genetics. Someone questioned why he believes that undernourished males are infertile. If, when such a male mates with a female, the subsequent ooths are infertile, and when the same female is mated with a normally raised male, she produces fertile ooths, then it is reasonable to assume that the stunted male is infertile.. The poor little fellows are using all the protein they can get to build and maintain tissue; there is non left over for spermatogenesis, so while your thoughts on genetics are interesting, I don't think that they apply here.

And even if there were a genetic abnormality due, say, to a transcription error, and a disadvantageous allele starts being expressed, genetic drift, as Superfreak once explained, will tend to eliminate it. This is why an "unmanaged" colony of wingless fruit flies will , after a while start producing more and more wild type specimens. this is "reverting to type".

*In saying this, I am deliberately avoiding the issue of deterioration of some facultatively parthenogenetic phasmid colonies, since Orin, I and others discussed hat recently, and it doesn't apply here.

This is an interesting discussion!

 

[frogparty]

Wingless fruit flies revert in The presence of high heat, or the introduction of wild flies into the culture. Normal wingless cultures kept in the low 70s with no wild flies getting in show very VERY little reversion to wild type. This is college genetics experience talking here. We use apteros melanogaster( no longer drosophila!) for genetic studies to observe just such things. I've let cultures go 2 months with no fliers. In fact, I don't remember the last time I got any fliers. I can link you more literature than you ll ever want to know about fruit fly genetics

 

[frogparty]

So I guess in the end it all comes down to doing whats best for the species you keep. If the best you can manage is inbreeding siblings than oh well, I will continue to breed in new genetics and well see how well our respective breeding colonies last.

 

[Rick]

When I raised orchids I raised both genders exactly the same. There never was a need to "slow down" the growth of the male. Yes, he matured much sooner but it was never an issue.

 

[ismart]

When I raised orchids I raised both genders exactly the same. There never was a need to "slow down" the growth of the male. Yes, he matured much sooner but it was never an issue.

+1! The males always lasted long enough to mate. If you want your males to grow slower, then why don't you chop a leg off? I personally have never done this, but it cant be any worse then keeping the males cold, and under nurished.

 

[frogparty]

^^^ thats what Im thinking^^^ my females are still basically at room temp, just closer to the lights on my frog tanks. I figure theyll last at least a month or two as adults, should be more than enough