So what do you all think, is this crazy?

[geckoboy3]

Okay, it's time for me to speak out. So here I go:

It would be a terrible idea for many reasons:

It would hurt native insects, and in turn, hurt things that prey off insects. Here in CA, I'm finding tons of invasive carnivorous insects or inverts that have taken over almost the entire city. I rarely find a native. Although finding a invasive mantis is highly unlikely, I do find some. Most of the rarer things where I live (ex. giant canyon isopods) are slow breeders... I don't know about you, but this is what's happening where I live.

It would be a good idea because:

+1 to what Phil said but I would go with a native instead.

 

[dgerndt]

But not enough, love. The environmental impact of herbivorous insects, like ash borers, is quite different from that of insectivores, like mantids. I find it curious that members of this forum frequently criticize APHIS for restricting the import of mantids, which can be carrying all sorts of nasty parasites, and are now criticizing state agricultural departments for the introduction of insectivores like ladybugs (ladybirds) and mantids as an alternative to insecticide use. As yet, no one has cited one case where this widespread practice has caused ecological damage in the U.S. Maybe we'll hear tomorrow.

I told you I was lazy! But here I go again: There are native ladybugs (or more scientifically speaking, Coccinellidae) to North America, but non-native species have been introduced, like you said. This Wikipedia article states that Harmonia axyridis, the introduced species from Asia, is out-competing most native species. As more proof, I caught a non-native ladybug in my room just a few days ago. I rarely see the native ones anymore.

 

[MantidLord]

Well, that's the most sensible counter argument that I have seen on this thread, so let's look more closely at it.

What is the "whole mantis population in Jew Jersey"? I regretted having joyously cited S. newjersiae and O trentoni, because there would be uninformed folks who would believe that these phantasmogoria actually existed. They do not. There are no mantids native to NE America. The Chinese, Narrow wuinged, and European mantis were all introduced into the NE from about 1896-99 (Tenodera sinensis-Mantis religiosa) to 1926 (Tenodera augustipennis) and into California as late as 1933 (Iris oratorio). How do you think that these mantids were introduced? By occasional refugees on lachuga :lol:trucks? That might be true of S. limbata in western California, but the others were introduced by massive "egg mass" (they hadn't invented "ooths" yet) as I described at length above in the case of the N.J.agricultural department. You haven't really researched this, have you? If I am mistaken, and you have, can you tell me of any case in which such a massive introduction "ruined a relatively stable ecosystem"? That's not a rhetorical question, I really want to know if you have an example or if you just made this dire warning up because you thought that this is how the world should be.

Now let's look at your concern about the hapless prey insects in the area. Why do you think that mantids were introduced into the U.S.? To provide Brian and his fellow entrepreneurs a nice source of ooths? No, to deal with insect pests. What is the alternative? Insecticides, and they kill everything. I am a little tired, for now, anyway, of providing URLs to data that nobody apparently bothers to read, so I'll let you share this one with us, but there is ample evidence that mantids, who may eat one or two insects a day, if that, are not very good pest controllers, but they are certainly better than the altentative.

You mention that you might permit a "controlled environment" experiment along these lines. How do you propose to do that?

I enjoy discussion and even argument, but I am careful to do my homework for the most part and I don't think it too much to expect that when members tell me that I am wrong, they have done theirs, too.

Phil, you speak as if every incident of an ecosystem being ruined has been studied, researched, or even documented. It doesn't take any ecologist to know that introducing a massive amount of ANYTHING into an ecosystem can have dire consequences. Especially when you're talking about introducing a generalist predator. That's common sense. Now even if, as you suggest, mantids aren't as effective at eliminating all prey insects in the area, they will sure as heck be competition for other predators including the native (assuming there is a native population) in New Jersey. This can lead to a decline in mantis population in total. You talk about doing homework and throw subtle insults, however apparently you haven't done yours. It's not ecologically responsible to introduce thousands of anything into "stable" ecosystem. Sure it was done hundreds of years ago, and there's no doubt in my mind that nature paid for it (reduction in native mantids and possibly elimination of other insects and wildlife). And for all we know, there could have been native species of mantids in that area hundreds of years ago that were wiped out. But that's besides the point. Phil, you want Brian to half hazardly release a large amount of specimens into the wild without him having any prior detailed knowledge of the area's current ecosystem and its inhabitants. Releasing that many mantids into the wild without having any reasonable way of documentation is irresponsible, and I'm a little surprised you would urge such a thing. Which brings me to my next point.

If I were to design an experiment to test this out (I almost forgot what we are testing out), I would rent a couple acres of land that is suitable to house a mantis population but for some reason, does not. I would then proceed to release dozens of ootheca into that land and record the status of the population over the years. Eventually, I would take one of the land plots, and release HUNDREDS of ootheca into that area, and see how that affects not only the mantis population, but the whole ecosystem. Now, you may be saying "the mantids will surely disperse", but that's not always the case. I remember reading an article (are you happy now Phil?) that studied the dispersal rate of Tenodera sinensis. They used a method very similar to what I propose with the plots of land, and placed netting around each plot in order to catch escaping specimens. Doing the experiment this way, you can compare the population that is "stable" that's been around for a couple of years to the one that was stable until the introduction of a ludicrous amount of specimens. Not only is this more controlled and doesn't involve the risk of unpredictable events (such as the population spreading or massive population growths around the city), it also provides an easy way to terminate all of the involved species, which is what usually would be done in science. Not to mention Phil, your way of identifying each mantis is crude at best. I say this, not only because it's not accurate, but because mantids with deformities such as a missing leg are at a disadvantage between mantids that don't have any physical deformities. Also, development of mantids with missing appendages is known (although I know of no formal lab experiment supporting this) to develop slower than those without imperfections. I too enjoy a good argument Phil, and in my former post I did not intend to insult you or say you were flat out wrong. However I do disagree with your urging of Brian to conduct an "experiment" without him or you doing any research of the current area.

Oh, and in my former post, when I said "whole mantis population in New Jersey" I was referring to any current Tenodera sp. population. Your fictitious species of mantids didn't fool me.

 

[geckoboy3]

I told you I was lazy! But here I go again: There are native ladybugs (or more scientifically speaking, Coccinellidae) to North America, but non-native species have been introduced, like you said. This Wikipedia article states that Harmonia axyridis, the introduced species from Asia, is out-competing most native species. As more proof, I caught a non-native ladybug in my room just a few days ago. I rarely see the native ones anymore.

+1

I sometimes forget there are natives! Damn this sensitive ecosystem....

 

[jday]

"Is this crazy?"...well, it doesn't seem like the wisest idea I've seen floated on this site, but it's not necessarily a recipe for ecological disaster, either. Still, there seem to be a lot of unknowns, and the possible positive outcomes (lots of mantises outside) don't seem to outweigh the possible negative outcomes.

I found this interesting because of the perceived scarcity of mantises in NJ relative to PA. I grew up on a peninsula in VA surrounded by water on three sides (two rivers and the Chesapeake bay.) I found some mantises as a kid, but not many. When I'd visit relatives further inland (western VA, TN, etc.)at the same latitude, I found a lot more mantises. There could be lots of reasons for this, and some might have nothing to do with ecology. Maybe it was because my parents made me play outside while they visited with older relatives. My hunch, however, is that proximity to large bodies of water has a lot to do with the mantis population. Water moderates colder temperatures, so maybe mantis eggs mature and hatch earlier, before sufficient mantis chow is available. Also, water results in swarms of mosquitoes, and my home county regularly sprayed to reduce these. They probably reduced mantis populations as well (not to mention my life expectancy.)

QP

 

[PhilinYuma]

Ah! I was ready to hear those negative outcomes! Foiled again! There aren't any that you can quite think of, are there? I gave up on this thread when several members expressed fears that Chinese mantids might replace natives or that natives should be introduced in their stead. I know the Christian name of every individual mantis native to my own country; don't you guys have any idea about the ecology and distribution of your own twenty-odd species? Now that is really sad. What natives, lol?!

Chinese mantids were all introduced, and the same attempt was made in Brian's state as in others. I even gave you a bib. citation, which of course, no one bothered to read. Can anyone demonstrate how their introduction anywhere has disrupted the "sensitive ecosystem?" Can anyone give facts instead of lofty rhetoric? Not so far. B)

 

[MantidLord]

Phil, I already stated my reasons. Which you failed to respond. I'm not worried about native mantids, because none exist in that area. Why launch an experiment that you can't monitor? You keep asking for facts, facts, facts. But what scientist has even studied the "sensitive ecosystem" to support or oppose the "rhetoric" that the introduction of MASSIVE amounts of T. sinensis wouldn't disrupt the ecosystem. Sure, massive ammounts of M. religiosa, T. sinensis, and later I. oratoria were introduced into N. America in massive amounts. But what studies were done at the time of their arrival on the native fauna? How can you be 100% certain that their introduction didn't harm previously existing or previously flourishing species of anything? Now some 100 years later, it still wouldn't be wise because the Chinese mantids would compete with each other and possibly lead to a reduction in population (lets add 5 billion more people in a city that "already supports humans" and see what happens). I stated a possible way that this experiment could be done with relatively easy documentation and limited risks. You keep asking questions and I answer them, yet get no reply. I'm starting to feel ignored.

 

[PhilinYuma]

My goodness, Mantidlord, I already gave you one, probably overlong, answer, but I'll add a little more so that you don't feel ignored. You say that I "speak as if every incident of an ecosystem being ruined has been studied, researched, or even documented". No, but I would be happy if you would keep to the more narrow boundaries of our topic, which was the introduction of a thousand ooths into an area in New Hampshire. Since this would have cost Brian about $1000, I thought it likely that he would introduce many fewer.

No one has yet given any example of the introduction of foreign mantids -- and I gave you a list to make things easier -- ever having had an adverse effect on the local environment. Unless you have some such examples, put concerns about purely fictitious mantids that may have existed in N.Y. "hundreds of years ago," and your fear that a "massive" introduction of Chines mantids may somehow harm the current Chinese mantis population, if it exists (do I understand you on this?) let alone your fear about introducing "5 billion" people, who presumably have a shorter life expectancy than mantids, into a city are beside the point.

I suspect that you are reacting to something that is not under discussion here, the introduction of large numbers of an alien species into the environment without sufficient preparatory study. There are countless examples of this (the ladybird example is regarded as a triumph by the Dept of Agriculture), from Kudzu vines in the Southeast, Eucalyptus trees in the West and mongooses in Hawaii, but this situation is different. Chinese mantids have already been in the N.E. U.S. for over 100 years, and heave been introduced "massively" into N.J. in the past without ill effect, so your arguments need to be supported by appropriate examples for them to have validity. I was sorry to see Hibiscusmile state that she had no comment on this topic, since if memory serves, she has mentioned in the past that she harvests Chinese and I. oratorio ooths from behind her house for sale on her site.. It would be interesting to know if she or any local entomologist has noted any catastophic changes to her local ecosystem.

I was glad to hear that you weren't "fooled" by my theoretical species ( :lol: )

but I'm afraid that you missed the poor attempt at humor in my suggestion about mutilating the left middle leg (I think!) on 200,000 tiny nymphs! I was originally going to suggest the use of radio transmitter collars, but I was afraid that they might strangle the poor little buggers by the time that they were L3. The easiest method of quantifying the results of this experiment have been in use for over a hundred years; simply search a given area for ooths of the target species in the fall before the experiment, do a count and compare it to the count taken in the fall after the introduction of the ooths. This, however, would only give an idea of how many eggs were laid (your experiment would not even tell us that),not how many hatched successfully, so I would count the number of ooths in the following year, without introducing any more ooths, and see if the beginnings of a viable colony had been established. This was not carried out in the experiment that I cited, because of the failure of the Chinese mantids to survive to an age when they could lay.

Also remember this. If you were an excellent H.S. football player, you would know that you could not possibly compete with a pro. By the same token, you cannot compete with me rhetorically. I admire your fire and enthusiasm, and am not offended in the least by your comments, but in this case, you will probably make better yardage if you stick to KISS. Cheers!

 

[MantidLord]

Okay Phil, so how about in the experiment I suggested, you use two plots of land that already have an established Chinese population, that way you can get an idea of how many eggs were laid? I just think searching areas for ooths where mantids could've dispersed or laid elsewhere isn't as accurate.

Now, I'm actually going to attempt to keep my response short. I'm pretty sure no one can give you a report of introduced mantids having an ill effect on a population, simply because no report was carried out at the time of introduction. Therefore it is up to people to assume that the introduction of the now naturalized species of mantis had no effect on the ecosystem. But if someone introduced a currently considered "exotic" mantis that would thrive in N. America, and study its affects on the ecosystem, I'm fairly certain it wouldn't just assimilate into the wild without having any influence over prey or predators (I'm not telling or recommending anyone do that). However, because that was so long ago, it's irrelevant for Brian's purposes. Chinese mantids are established now, and that's all that matters, like you said.

But before I continue, you mentioned the ladybird. I assume you're talking about Harmonia axyridis, which was introduced throughout the Americas and Europe (even parts of Africa). It may be considered a success, but one can't deny the impact it's having on native species of ladybird. Harmonia axyridis is dominating the native species of ladybird such as Coccinella septempunctata. Consider this, H. axyridis becomes the sole use of biological pest control against aphids. However, because it's so dominant and a single species, if some event happens and wipes it out or reduces the population. It would then result in an explosion of the aphid population because their main predator is now wiped out. This wouldn't occur in an ecosystem that is so biodiverse, that the population decrease of one predator would be replaced by the increase of another predator. Obviously this hasn't happened (and probably never will), but I just wanted to point out the possible risks of releasing a predator into another area and calling it a success. Not only that, an introduced predator can be practically invincible to indigenous predators, causing further problems. Just like the introduction of the Cane toad into Australia to get rid of the beetles. How'd that work out? Reduced the beetle population alright, yet caused a larger problem with the toads themselves. But, like you said, this situation is different and I agree. I simply wanted to point out the down sides to introducing alien species to an environment.

The introduction of thousands, hundreds, or 50 oothecae may or may not cause some catastrophic population growth or decrease in T. sinensis or any other creature. As you said, there's no reason to support that it will, as people release store bought nymphs (maybe not the same quantity and the same area) into the wild annually. They even sell T. sinensis ooths hear in Nevada (I don't no why, considering the dry, hot weather would prevent them from ever establishing a respectable colony). So I concede and agree with you that the dangers of carrying out this plan may not be as risky as previously mentioned (even by me, I admit). But I'm still wary about it effecting the current population of T. sinensis, however in order to test out my fears, an experiment would have to be done. But still, my main point, which was highlighted earlier, is how one would go about documenting this experiment?

Phil, I absolutely respect you and have no intentions (or hope) of beating you in an argument regarding ecology, especially dealing with mantids. I don't want to come out as a smart ### (edited by myself), because I'm not one. In fact, the main reason why I said what I did in the previous posts was to get destroyed by your response and learn from it (I'm not saying I said dumb things on purpose, I stood by what I said earlier, until hearing valid responses). I'm eager to hear back from you later today (or tomorrow). This thread is like a discussion in its purest form, in that different ideas are presented, yet not refuted simply for contradicting previous beliefs. I like the H.S football analogy. But remember, the "excellent H.S. football player" may not be able to compete with the pro, but he can sure as heck gain something from trying.

So much for keeping it short. Darn ladybirds. <_<

 

[dgerndt]

*waves hands around* Didn't anyone see my post about the ladybirds? I was pretty proud of myself for doing some research, but I don't get any recognition! *pouts*

 

[geckoboy3]

*waves hands around* Didn't anyone see my post about the ladybirds? I was pretty proud of myself for doing some research, but I don't get any recognition! *pouts*

:lol:

 

[PhilinYuma]

*waves hands around* Didn't anyone see my post about the ladybirds? I was pretty proud of myself for doing some research, but I don't get any recognition! *pouts*

Well, I was proud of you Deby, and here's a funny ladybird story just to prove it.

About 30 years ago, when my two eldest boys were in grade school, I bought a clump of hibernating ladybirds for some experiment on temps and kept them in the freezer. The kids thought that they were "real cool". One day, David's teacher came by, if I remember, to have me volunteer for something, and was standing under a small chandelier in the living room. Apparently, David or Peter had taken the ladybirds out of the freezer to show a friend and had left them on the counter.They defrosted and flew up to the chandelier, and as I watched, they fell, one by one, into the teacher's hair. I think that I agreed to anything that she asked, just to get her out of the house before she noticed what was happening!

The point is that these were seven spot ladybirds, Coccinella septempunctata, a common species in the U.S. which I once saw in a mass emergence in Lemon Grove, just east of San Diego. But, unlike C. novemnotata, the nine spot ladybird, these are not native American species, either, and were introduced from Europe and have since become the state insect of seven states (I just looked it up on Wiki)! We like to shake our heads over disappearing species (I haven't seen a buffalo in months) and newly introduced ones, but most folks quickly come to accept introduced aliens, whether they be wild mustangs, house sparrows, linnets (what a pretty bird!) or seven-spot ladybirds, as part of our natural fauna. Think of all the folks on this forum who would have never joined, had they not found an alien, invasive, fragile-ecosystem-threatening, Chinese mantis!

 

[geckoboy3]

Well, I was proud of you Deby, and here's a funny ladybird story just to prove it.

About 30 years ago, when my two eldest boys were in grade school, I bought a clump of hibernating ladybirds for some experiment on temps and kept them in the freezer. The kids thought that they were "real cool". One day, David's teacher came by, if I remember, to have me volunteer for something, and was standing under a small chandelier in the living room. Apparently, David or Peter had taken the ladybirds out of the freezer to show a friend and had left them on the counter.They defrosted and flew up to the chandelier, and as I watched, they fell, one by one, into the teacher's hair. I think that I agreed to anything that she asked, just to get her out of the house before she noticed what was happening!

The point is that these were seven spot ladybirds, Coccinella septempunctata, a common species in the U.S. which I once saw in a mass emergence in Lemon Grove, just east of San Diego. But, unlike C. novemnotata, the nine spot ladybird, these are not native American species, either, and were introduced from Europe and have since become the state insect of seven states (I just looked it up on Wiki)! We like to shake our heads over disappearing species (I haven't seen a buffalo in months) and newly introduced ones, but most folks quickly come to accept introduced aliens, whether they be wild mustangs, house sparrows, linnets (what a pretty bird!) or seven-spot ladybirds, as part of our natural fauna. Think of all the folks on this forum who would have never joined, had they not found an alien, invasive, fragile-ecosystem-threatening, Chinese mantis!

I have to agree.

Although I'm surprised that no one mentioned honey bees...

I'm sure one of you (Phill) will start a really long message/rant about it soon.

PS It fell in her hair :lol: ?

 

[Hypoponera]

Hey Phil!

I see Bison nearly every day. Feel free to come up for a visit any time you need to see one. They are also "on the menu" at a couple steak places in town.

Mantidlord,

The most commonly accepted measuring method in use is as Phil described. You do the old transect method. You check for ooths/nymphs/adults along a given distance. You compare the numbers found from many transects over a number of years. The same is done for determining numbers of ant species in an area, but using pitfall traps to catch them along the transect.

 

[PhilinYuma]

Hi Mike! Always good to hear your expert opinion. AZ Game and Fish maintain two bison herds here, one in Raymond and one somewhere in the Kaibab. It would be more fun to sneak across the border and visit you and your Other Hobbies, though!

 

[Hypoponera]

Your always welcome this side of the border! My bug room is always open to you. Still looking for S. californica or did you get some already?

 

[dgerndt]

Thank you, Phil! I got a good laugh out of that story! :lol:

What you said is true, many of us would not be here if it wasn't for those non-native Chinese popping up, including me! Personally, I love Chinese mantids. And, overall, I'm glad they're here. Surprisingly, I've only seen three mantids in the wild, and only one of them was a Chinese.

 

[Precarious]

I'm tired of all these foreign mantids taking the jobs from native species! :angry:

Carolinas do great work in the garden but Chinese ooths are so much cheaper they force them out!

 

[dgerndt]

:lol: LOL!!!