U.S. Mantis Permit info

[PeterF]

Thanks for the input Phil.

For clarity "as yet unimported species" wouldn't have been in research paper work. It was just a place holder in the event we selected a species that had not been imported.

I bet we could do a study on feeding preference, say pollinators versus pest species in agriculture.

For example does the MegaMantis prefer honey bees, migratory grasshoppers, or cabbage whites. We could even do a whole experiment on whether the Megamantid prefers cabbage whites or if it prefers the wasps that prey on the cabbage white caterpillars.

Of course, this would be done in the lab, no one is suggesting releasing an imported species into our test field.

This is all strictly hypothetical anyway. But interesting.

In such an event, I would not want to get a selected species from a domestic breeder and the possible stress at their end. If I were to buy them from england or germany (where I believe the laws are somewhat more lax) would those people have any trouble with their own government?

Maybe we need a new grad student...

 

[GreenOasis]

So, this is the new APHIS permit application form:

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/plant_health/permits/downloads/forms/ppqform526.pdf

And this is what it says:

Instructions for Completing PPQ Form 526

Application for Permit to Move Live Plant Pests or Noxious Weeds

Complete this form to request a USDA-APHIS-PPQ permit for the following activities:

1. IMPORT – Plant pests, including but not limited to the following living organisms; insects,

mites, nematodes, snails, slugs, earthworms, microbes pathogenic to plants or invertebrates, honey

bees and other pollinating bees, biological control organisms, parasitic plants, or Federal noxious

weeds into the United States.

2. SHIP INTERSTATE - any of the above, EXCEPT honey bees and entomophagous insects.

(Interstate shipment of entomopathogens does not require a permit unless the organisms were

originally imported under a permit requiring containment. APHIS does not regulate interstate

movement of pollinating bees, including honey bees.)

3. RELEASE - an organism, including those for biological control purposes, from containment into

the environment of the United States.

What this means is that, if your application IS approved (dubious), you will be allowed to import any of the species in #1, ship state-to-state any of the things in #1 and RELEASE them into the environment! (Any wonder now, why they are so strict about who they give these permits to?)

If you will notice #2, though, you can see that honey bees & "entomophagous insects" (bugs that eat other bugs) are exempted from the requirement of a permit. *Unless a permit was required for the original importation* Now, how are we to know what species were required to have a permit unless we ask them? (Or are just THAT knowledgeable!?)

It seems to me that, if you are receiving your mantids from a captively-bred source within your "region" (here, the continental U.S.), you should be "good"...however, you can also see by re-reading #1 & #2, that it's really a catch-22. Number 1 lists "insects" without specific species designation, but number 2 states that "entomophagous insects" are exempt. What this says, to me, is that they have it worded so that they can interpret it differently, based on how they want to use it. Mantids ARE insects, but they are entomophagous insects, so...I would say that if anyone is serious in trying to obtain/maintain exotic species without a permit, they should retain a lawyer to help out in the event that some jerk at APHIS decides that they don't want you to keep them. Otherwise, you could just apply for a permit (free, but you're then inviting "big brother" into your life!)

Interpreting it literally, mantids are legal to keep without a permit, phasmids are legal to keep WITH a permit. The only "gray area" here involves exotic species of mantids, which, I still believe follows the "don't ask, don't tell" policy. Unless you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that you obtained your exotics legally, captive-bred...well, it's at your own risk, but most likely, you're fine.

Of course, I've only studied law for a few years, so take my advice with a grain of salt. I strongly encourage folks to do their own research & "arm" themselves. The best way to fight ignorance is with intelligence!

-Carey Kurtz-

Green Oasis Reptiles

 

[Colorcham427]

I've been curious if importing "dead oothecae" would be allowed...? For scientific observation, definitely not ooths that might possibly hatch little beautiful gems!

 

[PhilinYuma]

I've been curious if importing "dead oothecae" would be allowed...? For scientific observation, definitely not ooths that might possibly hatch little beautiful gems!

The import/export of dead insects, and dead ooths would qualify, require a permit from FWS. Good try, though, Brian!

 

[GreenOasis]

I've been curious if importing "dead oothecae" would be allowed...? For scientific observation, definitely not ooths that might possibly hatch little beautiful gems!

Yep, sorry...you can't pull that one off. If the super-intelligent agents can't visually determine that the ooth is "dead" (and how would they know unless they have quite a bit of experience, eh?), they will just hold it for however long they think they need to to determine its fertility...or just destroy it outright...the latter case likely being their preference.

-Carey Kurtz-

 

[massaman]

what could you get from observing a dead ooth scientifically unless it hatches undead nymphs?

 

[PhilinYuma]

what could you get from observing a dead ooth scientifically unless it hatches undead nymphs?

I've often wondered the same thing, Paul, but it is a popular area of study in some countries. If you want more information, check out the Dead Ooth Direct Observation site, here: http://dodo.org/

 

[Findarato]

I've often wondered the same thing, Paul, but it is a popular area of study in some countries. If you want more information, check out the Dead Ooth Direct Observation site, here: http://dodo.org/

This link brings me to a Finnish site about a group of people concerned with with environmental problems, not mantis related at all. I just tried it, me being curious.

 

[PhilinYuma]

This link brings me to a Finnish site about a group of people concerned with with environmental problems, not mantis related at all. I just tried it, me being curious.

That's what they want you to believe, Findarato. Cunning devils, those Finnish Dodos!

(Es ist nur ein Scherz!

)

 

[Findarato]

That's what they want you to believe, Findarato. Cunning devils, those Finnish Dodos!

(Es ist nur ein Scherz!

)

ok, that happens when one does not read all posts in a topic it seems.

 

[PeterF]

Importing dud oothes isn't the worst idea ever. I had been thinking that the lab could make a display of lots of different mantis oothes. And I would rather use dud ones than kill good ones.

As for what other people would want them for. Dunno.

But if there ever are undead mantid nymphs, I will be first in line.

Come to think of it, one of my last european females is only eating the cricket brains and then dropping the body. Maybe I aught to hatch her ooth special...

 

[GreenOasis]

what could you get from observing a dead ooth scientifically unless it hatches undead nymphs?

LOL...great one! Didn't work for Brom Stoker's Dracula, though, did it? (The "Brides" of Dracule?) Or, was that Van Helsing??? God, I've seen TOO MANY vampire movies!

So, would undead nymphs only drink the blood of live mantises?

-Carey Kurtz-

 

[GreenOasis]

Come to think of it, one of my last european females is only eating the cricket brains and then dropping the body. Maybe I aught to hatch her ooth special...

Oh...Oh...ZOMBIE mantises now...I LOVE IT! :lol:

-Carey Kurtz-

 

[Termite48]

It has been over fifteen months since there has been a new entry regarding this issue. I went online using the sited webaddress, so I could apply for the permit and here is what I found: I gave the USDA all my preliminary info so I could get processed and waited for the authentication email. One is to wait 20 minutes, them go online at their site and complete the password activation so one can get level two access. To complete this process, one literally has to give the USDA complete access to the "communication system" which includes ones computer and any computer networking with it. I am no computer genius by any means, but what is looks like is by getting e-access to the USDA in regard to ones status, there must be a secret download that takes place and allows the USDA into your computer's contents. Am I wrong in thinking this. Rick, Phil, someone, help me out here. Go ahead and take the steps I did and se what you think. I did not complete the authentication process as it gave me the heeby jeebies. I am against the violation of ones privacy and of bigger government. There is no way I am giving the USDA anything that they can't get by search and seizure the hard way. There is no way I am naming mantis sources, species I keep or naming this forum.

You are accessing a U.S. Government information system, which includes (1) this computer, (2) this computer network, (3) all computers connected to this network, and (4) all devices and storage media attached to this network or to a computer on this network. This information system is provided for U.S. Government-authorized use only. This is what awaiting my affirmation.

Unauthorized or improper use of this system may result in disciplinary action, as well as civil and criminal penalties.

By using this information system, you understand and consent to the following:

You have no reasonable expectation of privacy regarding any communications or data transiting or stored on this information system. At any time, the government may for any lawful government purpose monitor, intercept, search and seize any communication or data transiting or stored on this information system.

Any communications or data transiting or stored on this information system may be disclosed or used for any lawful government purpose.

Your consent is final and irrevocable. You may not rely on any statements or informal policies purporting to provide you with any expectation of privacy regarding communications on this system, whether oral or written, by your supervisor or any other official, except USDA's Chief Information Officer.

 

[PhilinYuma]

Yep, you've got it right, and thanks for this post. As they plainly state, once you sign in, they have complete access to your computer and any Emails that you may have sent to anyone about buying, selling or trading mantids and you can be sure that they can trace their IP addies. And when you've done all that there is no guarantee -- in many cases, no likelihood -- that they will give you any kind of permit. As Rick, I and others have been saying for quite a while, stay away; stay away!

 

[Termite48]

Thanks Phil for confirming my suspicion. I do not think that the permit is anything but a one way street to disclosure of all that big brother would like to have, If they are so interested in such trivial pursuits, then we are really in trouble in this country and we know that for sure. A permit to send a Ghost mantid from L.A. area to Las Vegas. Come on guys. The government is just to .... big, and snoopy and I for sure am not going to aid them. Thanks to all of you who have checked out this issue. We will enjoy our hobby to the best degree we can, while we can, but let us not aid in our own demise.

 

[patrickfraser]

 

[nebrakacinese]

@A case in point that I do know about is the tropical fish trade, Coming ino this country.Uncle sam doesn't monitor where the fsh are going,but the cost is very,very outragious.Just sharing the regulations,as long as they get their share,they don't care.

 

[minard734]

Can a 16 year old get this permit?

 

[PhilinYuma]

Nope! But the agency would be happy to get all of your contact information before turning you down!