Video: Mantis Eats Sushi!

[Kruszakus]

Nevermind. I'm way better that doing something that cruel.

 

[revmdn]

It's funny that the members of this forum that are so offended by this video are also the same members being the most offensive to their fellow members who do not share their beliefs.

 

[PhilinYuma]

I said what I thought, big deal. If moderators can't take aa bit of critisism without locking threads or deleting posts then I give up. Not once have I removed bad words directed to me or arguments I disagree with on the forums I moderate. Personal attacks? So tell me, why was it okay in the past for me to be called an ######, anal and a few other less than nice names? Don't get me wrong, I have been called far worse things by far worse people, but it is the hypocrisy that annoys me.

We have tried Christian, many times. One day we can say I told you so There was a time when my complaints were listened to and the posts removed; something changed along the way.

When are you all going to listen to what we are saying??? We are simple being cautious to protect the future of the hobby, where is the problem with that?

I'll go back to 'raising' mantids now :lol:

Rob.

Well, I'm going to bow out of this thread on an upbeat and positive note!

Rob. You complain that we are not getting yr point. I want you to know that you haven't failed. Yr point is made quite clearly and cogently. If I understand you, and I do, you say that while you have no objections to folks feeding live fish to mantids in private, you fear that if they post pix of this practice on You Tube and on this site, sooner or later, someone will ban the keeping of mantids. We are very familiar with this argument in the U.S. as in the doctrine of "Don't ask, don't tell" in the armed forces. It is not that we don't get your point, it is just that we strongly disagree with it. Do you or Christian get our point?

The good news, though, is summed up in Christian's last post. American's are less concerned with fishes' rights than you believe Europeans to be. Mantid Forum and You Tube are American sites. However bored Christian's hypothetical politician may be, it would be hard to get much traction for an attempt to ban mantid keeping in Europe solely on the basis of the practice of a few degenerate Americans. So there you are. Our behavior is not likely to interest your politicians or animal rights groups any more than the fate of fox hunting in England concerns Americans. You're not at risk from us!

Some of your fellow European hobbyists, though, do not agree with your viewpoint. Kruszakus is up front in telling us that Peter and those who agree with him are cruel and that he is a better person than we. A comforting philosophy indeed. Christian is more subtle, so I am not sure whether the taste of disgust down his throat (reification!! ) is due to our failure to understand and therefor be converted to his argument or because he agrees with Kruszakus. That you, who have contributed nothing that I can remember to mantis care in this forum in the past year, would call allies with a similar record here (though Gurd sometimes has a pleasant word!) to press an argument that has failed in the past, suggests that you may have a deeper emotional investment in this than you know.

So one final piece of good news. This topic is obviously a thorn in your side and you seem to be unable to leave it alone, but that is curable too. You have hinted at leaving the forum on several occasions in the brief time that I have been here, because of unhappiness with the administrators and the pernicious influence of folks like me. If you quit, I would miss you, frankly, for your entertainment value, but it would be unfair of me to urge you or any like minded member to stay just for my sake. Ite in pace!

 

[Ian]

I'd love to see you on a comedy panel show Phil :lol:

Great post.

 

[ZoeRipper]

Oh noes, a live fish.

Keep in mind fish don't have the brain capacity to recognize pain.

And those look like the kind I use to go fishing with.

 

[revmdn]

Thank you Phil.

 

[Rob Byatt]

That you, who have contributed nothing that I can remember to mantis care in this forum in the past year

You have been here for a year, Phil I ceased to give advice on Hymenopus as no matter how much [good] advice I gave it fell on deaf ears. The same happened with Idolomantis. There are only so many times I will repeat myself, believe it or not.....

Phil, have you started to keep any mantids yet?

 

[Cosmic]

Can't quite believe why admin would even start a thread about feeding live vertebrates to an insect without knowing what will occur after, but what can I say not my site do as you please.

I can't condone it, certainly not filming it and making it public but I'm in the UK so what do my views count.

Is this an international mantid forum or just for people residing in the US? Seems the views of some members just arn't respected by members of this site who should know better.

Is you-tube a site devoted to and promoting the mantid hobby? Yes anybody can see a mantid eating a mouse/fish/snake/hummingbird on you-tube, so they may think they are pretty cool seeing the films of mantids eating live vertibrate and think "hey I'd like one of them" so they find out about the care of these mantids stumble onto this site and think "cool I can feed them live fish" but why stop there "wonder how they would get on with a mouse?"

What do you think when you step on an ant? What would you think if you stepped on a shrew? My analogy is you can't really compare vertebrates to invertebrates.

The sell of live vertebrates for the purposes of feeding to other animals is banned in this country and to my knowledge this includes "feeder fish", so maybe some of you US members can understand why some of us European members are against this.

Sorry Phil not up to scratch with some of your essays but at least it was more than one line as they don't seem to count as legit posts in your eyes.

 

[revmdn]

Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I don't respect you. Buddhist and Hindus believe life is life, vert. or invert. You can't be upset when others don't share your views or opinions, or is that an American trait?

 

[Mantibama]

This has been an extremely interesting debate to sit on the sidelines and watch. But the time has come for myself, being a peon of no consequence nor sway within this community, to add my two cents. First, it seems like this debate has really degraded into an us vs. them mentality between countries. Who initially drew the line of demarcation I wonder? Phil makes a good point. How can you claim that you know the opinion of the majority of Europe on the feeding of vertebrates to mantids or, for that matter, ignorantly lump all Americans into having one sole opinion on the matter? Oh yeah I forgot! Surely the U.S. is not one of the greatest meccas of diversity and free thought in the world and we're all just mindless, baby-eating, middle east meddling, blindly religious, destroyers of the ozone. I, being an American (from the South even!), am personally horribly offended by this video and upon viewing immediately started crying tears of fish blood. Can I jump on the moral high horse as well? That's tongue-in-cheek by the way. Ironic sarcastic commentary aside, I just don't understand any value system that places prominence on one form of evolution over another. I think that conservation of rare species and preservation of one's own species are important things. Nature is much better at doing things than we are and it would be a shame to lose potential understanding of the world around us or deny future generations the possibility to do so, and, while I think the human population is a little too big, I am not a fan of murder. I know I don't want to be murdered just as much as the next guy, and since we're an intelligent enough species to communicate that to each other the whole murder is illegal thing works for me. I point both of these out to avoid attempts of contradicting my following statement. Despite religious beliefs, what we can absolutely claim is we're all just a bunch of molecules. The fish, the mantis, you, me, and judge Joe Brown are all just a bunch of molecules. I do not see any moral issues with choosing to convert a bunch of molecules into another form nor do I see how one divergent phylum developing a vertebral column gives humans the right to prioritize their life value. I'm not one to be sympathetic to animals feeling pain nor am I willing to censor my opinions or actions for fear of the repercussions of offending someone's sensibilities. That's how theocracies and China get started! What is the exact length of time that exceeds the acceptable limit of the sensation of pain anyway? In conclusion, with a sound mind (I think ), I cannot throw any support behind the condemnation of Peter for posting this video and in fact give him a metaphorical high five. What can I say? I guess I'm too American.

 

[PhilinYuma]

Thanks for a very helpful post, cosmicbug! So the use of fish as live food is a core issue in the UK. I just checked a bunch of threads on British forums and folks are now looking on it as an ethical issue. This makes a lot more sense to me, at least, than a vague fear about the possible future action of some hypothetical bored politician. I was closely associated with a few members of the British Cichlid Association a few decades ago and know that feeder fish were fed as a matter of course, then. I also remember going down to the harbor in Hastings as a kid, when the fishing boats came in. A fisherman would give the tourists a lecture on the fish that they had caught, while the latter quietly died of suffocation. Sensibilities change, I guess. Americans deplore the killing of dolphins in Denmark; Australians are outraged by the killing of baby seals in Canada: Canadians are appalled by the massacre of kangaroos in Australia, Californians are outraged by the veterinarian who ordered the killing of 3,000 infected chickens in a wood chipper ("macerator"), a practice that is routine in parts of Europe, and so it goes. Meanwhile, our own soldiers are sent to war in places where it is certain that they will kill women and children, and this is deemed unfortunate collateral damage.

Like me mum used to say, "there's nowt as queer as folk."

 

[JoeCapricorn]

There are other videos on Youtube of mantises eating fishies. There's one awesome one of a mantis slaying a mouse! Insects eating vertebrates isn't unheard of in nature, and let's not forget those hummingbirds. I'm sure they feel more pain than a cold blooded vertebrate, being warm blooded and having a higher metabolism.

I think insects also feel pain, but a mantis has to eat! They can't become vegan...

And if anyone here has snakes and feeds them pinkies or hoppers... I'm sure you're not among the ones protesting this sushi eating mantis.

Also, I love the music Peter puts in his videos, the song on his Horse Lubber grasshoppers is so fitting!

 

[superfreak]

1) Invertebrates do not have as highly developed a nervous system as vertebrates. The do not feel pain. Fish do. If youre not a biologist, dont even start with this argument.

2) The "but other people do it all the time" argument belongs in the playground. Im shocked people still carry this mentality with them into the world. Funnily enough, whenever this topic is posted by an ordinary peon and not a moderator, it gets deleted instantly.

3) The feeding of live rats and mice (and sometimes birds and gerbils and bunnies...im sure even a kitten out there somewhere!) to reptiles or large fish or even insects isnt something thats encouraged here in Australia. Perhaps its our European roots, but feeders are killed quickly and fed fresh.

4) Seeing a video like this immediately has me drawing similarities in my mind with all those horrid "vs." videos on youtube. Is this really the image we wish to display to the viewing community?

I, personally, have no problems with feeding feeder fish to a mantis. Im just calling it as i see it. And as i see it, this shouldnt have been posted up to begin with but really shouldnt have caused such a stir when it was.

Back to exam prep,

- Olga

 

[PhilinYuma]

Curses, Superfreak, best argument I've heard from the opposition yet! Kittens, huh? Good luck on Monday, luv!

 

[revmdn]

Curses, Superfreak, best argument I've heard from the opposition yet! Kittens, huh? Good luck on Monday, luv!

Yeah Phil, she is one swell young laddie, isn't she. :wub: No offense James.

 

[JoeCapricorn]

1) Invertebrates do not have as highly developed a nervous system as vertebrates. The do not feel pain. Fish do. If youre not a biologist, dont even start with this argument.2) The "but other people do it all the time" argument belongs in the playground. Im shocked people still carry this mentality with them into the world. Funnily enough, whenever this topic is posted by an ordinary peon and not a moderator, it gets deleted instantly.

3) The feeding of live rats and mice (and sometimes birds and gerbils and bunnies...im sure even a kitten out there somewhere!) to reptiles or large fish or even insects isnt something thats encouraged here in Australia. Perhaps its our European roots, but feeders are killed quickly and fed fresh.

4) Seeing a video like this immediately has me drawing similarities in my mind with all those horrid "vs." videos on youtube. Is this really the image we wish to display to the viewing community?

I, personally, have no problems with feeding feeder fish to a mantis. Im just calling it as i see it. And as i see it, this shouldnt have been posted up to begin with but really shouldnt have caused such a stir when it was.

Back to exam prep,

- Olga

1) I disagree. It hasn't been proven either way, I'm not sure of any research in the field of insect pain... but crustaceans have been researched and there has been some evidence pointing to morphine affecting them in a similar way as it affects vertebrates. My personal opinion is that they do feel pain. I don't think it can be proven either way, because the sense experiences from the point of view of an insect cannot be completely understood to my knowledge. I think figuring this out sometimes is influenced by our own empathy, because insects and other inverts do react to noxious stimulus in a similar way to vertebrates. I mean, sometimes I wonder if my pet Monarch Valentine, who is missing her front two wings, feels sadness because she cannot fly free... but that doesn't mean she actually feels sad, right? But if so, I'd like to think that I am cheering her up when I feed her and let her sit on my finger.

3) Bunnies? Kittens? ;_; I can't see myself owning a snake or other reptile that requires mice. In fact, whenever I go to this local reptile shop, I sometimes ponder having a pet mouse... because they are so cute and small. What sort of pet would a kitten be fed to? I certainly wouldn't want something like that around my house. I have a cat named Milo and I don't want Milo to be food :c

4) Mantises are fascinating creatures to watch, the first thing people are curious about is how they catch their food... the second thing is how they eat their mates. Naturally, when someone has footage of a mantis eating, they'd post it because they feel it would satisfy the curiosity of others about how a mantis eats. Personally, my favorite video on Youtube is "Mantis religiosa and wasp" (it's actually a S. viridis, though) because of the little "happy dance" the mantis does at the end. "Sick Praying Mantis" seems to be another popular video, because it caters to our feelings of empathy toward the mantis - the mantis in the video is missing her two hind left feet and is advertised as being sick (although aside from her feet she seems fine to me). I also like the "Astrid being dumb" video because of the cuteness of a mantis trying to grab water.

Yeah, the negative response to this video had me going "lol wut"...

 

[PhilinYuma]

1) I disagree. It hasn't been proven either way, I'm not sure of any research in the field of insect pain... but crustaceans have been researched and there has been some evidence pointing to morphine affecting them in a similar way as it affects vertebrates. My personal opinion is that they do feel pain. I don't think it can be proven either way, because the sense experiences from the point of view of an insect cannot be completely understood to my knowledge. I think figuring this out sometimes is influenced by our own empathy, because insects and other inverts do react to noxious stimulus in a similar way to vertebrates. I mean, sometimes I wonder if my pet Monarch Valentine, who is missing her front two wings, feels sadness because she cannot fly free... but that doesn't mean she actually feels sad, right? But if so, I'd like to think that I am cheering her up when I feed her and let her sit on my finger. Yeah, the negative response to this video had me going "lol wut"...

Hey, go for it Joe! Morphine on crustaceans, huh? I reckon that you think that Superfreak is wrong, then, when she says that you need a background in biology to argue her point? Unfortunately (or fortunately ), she is cramming at the moment, but I'm sure that she won't mind if I stick to a simple answer about insects not having a highly developed nervous system compared to vertebrates. As you know, there are several ways of measuring stimulus response in insects, and one is the Weber-Fechner relationships. There, you may remember, the magnitude of the stimulus effect on the frequency of action potentials of the sense cell is related to the log of the stimulus strength. This is covered in Murray Blum's Fundamentals of Insect Physiology (1985) Chap 7 and Marc Klowden's Physiological Systems in Insects(2002) Chap 11, but it is pretty routine stuff, available anywhere. And that relationship can only obtain due to the very limited ranges of mechanoreceptor response in insects. I imagine that that was what Superfreak had in mind, but like you, I am not a biologist, let alone an entomologist.

You won't see the term "pain" used in works on insect physiology, because while one can measure stimuli, pain is a subjective response to that stimulus. It is often addressed as a psycholinguistic issue, and that does come under my area of competence, so without bothering you with any more jargon, I can tell you confidently that insects do not experience pain (except in parts of Ohio) in the sense that we do (and if you read somewhere that pain in insects can be defined as a sensory experience that evokes an aversive response, go find another book), and "pain" in any other sense is unimaginable and consequently meaningless.

 

[Kruszakus]

Some of your fellow European hobbyists, though, do not agree with your viewpoint. Kruszakus is up front in telling us that Peter and those who agree with him are cruel and that he is a better person than we. A comforting philosophy indeed. Christian is more subtle, so I am not sure whether the taste of disgust down his throat (reification!! ) is due to our failure to understand and therefor be converted to his argument or because he agrees with Kruszakus. That you, who have contributed nothing that I can remember to mantis care in this forum in the past year, would call allies with a similar record here (though Gurd sometimes has a pleasant word!) to press an argument that has failed in the past, suggests that you may have a deeper emotional investment in this than you know. Ite in pace!

I promised mysef to ignore you, but since you've misinterpreted what I wrote, I have to address that.

I did not say I'm a better person - I just said that I'm better than doing the activity described in this thread. I don't feel the need to throw every living creature in front of my mantids and watch the results of such a face-off.

 

[Rick]

1) Invertebrates do not have as highly developed a nervous system as vertebrates. The do not feel pain. Fish do. If youre not a biologist, dont even start with this argument.2) The "but other people do it all the time" argument belongs in the playground. Im shocked people still carry this mentality with them into the world. Funnily enough, whenever this topic is posted by an ordinary peon and not a moderator, it gets deleted instantly.

3) The feeding of live rats and mice (and sometimes birds and gerbils and bunnies...im sure even a kitten out there somewhere!) to reptiles or large fish or even insects isnt something thats encouraged here in Australia. Perhaps its our European roots, but feeders are killed quickly and fed fresh.

4) Seeing a video like this immediately has me drawing similarities in my mind with all those horrid "vs." videos on youtube. Is this really the image we wish to display to the viewing community?

I, personally, have no problems with feeding feeder fish to a mantis. Im just calling it as i see it. And as i see it, this shouldnt have been posted up to begin with but really shouldnt have caused such a stir when it was.

Back to exam prep,

- Olga

Are you a biologist?

Your European roots? Do you know anything about the history of the U.S.? Who do you think did the majority of the colonization here?

 

[PhilinYuma]

I promised mysef to ignore you, but since you've misinterpreted what I wrote, I have to address that. I did not say I'm a better person - I just said that I'm better than doing the activity described in this thread. I don't feel the need to throw every living creature in front of my mantids and watch the results of such a face-off.

I'm sorry, Kruszakus, if I misunderstood you. I think you said, "Nevermind. I'm way better that doing something that cruel." This is "almost English" and doesn't really make any sense. Having been guilty of "almost French" and "almost German" myself on occasion, I can fully sympathize. I reckoned that you meant that you were a better person than someone who would do the described activity. Remember that in English, adjectives with an "er" suffix (I think that the Polish equivalent is "szy", no?) are aptly named "comparative," so I was correct in inferring a comparison. I'm sure that we would all like to hear what you really mean, so if you have a Polish friend fluent in English, maybe he could give you a more cogent translation. It is reassuring, though, to know that you are not feeding kittens.

I didn't know about yr promise to yrself to ignore me; how cool is that?! Probably not a bad idea; it will keep you out of some losing arguments!

Rick: "Your European roots? Do you know anything about the history of the U.S.? Who do you think did the majority of the colonization here?"

Now that is an interesting question! Perhaps I should mention here that Superfreak is very much an adoptive granddaughter to me, in a relationship which exists mostly outside of this forum. Right now she is (or should be!) sleeping before her first final at 2100, Yuma time, or 1500, on Monday in Sidney, so I'll answer this. Generally, Europeans, and non-Europeans for that matter, know about much more about America than Americans know about other countries. I have been told by some American friends that that is because, "we are the most powerful country in the world!" but no, it is simpoly ignorance and poor education. I advise them to start learning about China.

Being of European descent or extraction does not mean that one shares European mores or values, as I'm sure you will agree. Superfreak and I are both naturalized expats, though for her, the dichotomy between European (Ukrainian) and Australian culture is much more apparent, since she speaks Russian at home with her parents and English (or strine, which is almost the same thing!) everywhere else.

The sad thing for folks like me and SF's 'rents is that our Europe doesn't exist, and in my case, has not existed for half a century. It froze on the day that we left our homeland. I am in daily contact with English family and friends but had absolutely no idea about the shift in sensibility about feeding live fish! Imagine an American who left the U.S. in the '60s and still regarded the values of that era as "American!" But our empathy for and some of the values of our homeland persist, and Superfreak is very precise in referring to her European "roots." They run deep.

Decades ago, I took a rather mediocre BS in biology and vaguely remember some of the principles and know how to read a biology book, provided that it isn't too difficult. Superfreak is in her senior year at uni and takes a preponderance of entomology courses. I have no doubt at all that she knows a lot more biology than I. I think though, that she was referring to a biologist's way of looking at the data, and the first two sentences of Joe's post were a perfect example of what happens when someone without any scientific education whatsoever voices their opinion on a scientific subject. American schools foster the notion that a multiplicity of views on a given subject are important and worthy of equal consideration. No.

Hope that that helps!