Video: Mantis Eats Sushi!

[Orin]

Well i'm new to the hobby and i know i havent said much here as i was still trying to learn whats what but i'm sorry, we do seem to have such huge cultural differences and i don't want to be party to what i can only see as out and out barbaric behaviour and openly glorified by some of the members here so i wish to have my account removed from here, if that can be done please..

Most forums will not remove accounts because your posts are not your property once posted and missing posts in the middle of a thread would cause continuity problems. Since you haven't posted much of anything it might not be a problem, write Peter a PM. If your account can't be removed it certainly can be disabled but you won't be able to read most of the forum.

 

[Ian]

Clearly, there are cultural differences here.

I know this thread has caused a lot of controversy, some wish to keep it open, some are offended by this.

Personally, I don't see a problem, but I think this thread will be thought over as to whether it stays or not.

On behalf of people who have taken offense, I can only appologise, but please see that this is ONLY a cultural difference in opinion, and not a direct "offense" at anyone concerned.

 

[ZoeRipper]

Why is this such a big deal?

Honestly?

That fish isn't even one that's useful, you put it on a hook and try to catch a bigger fish with it.

Jeez.

 

[Orin]

Why is this such a big deal?

I doubt it really is, it seems like it might just be a few people (possibly one or both using multiple accounts) from a competing forum trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill in hopes of siphoning off a few members.

 

[revmdn]

I see you're trying to prove a point or influence other members by posting something that should have been handled through pm's with the mods or admin. Peter I see what you mean about the conspiracy. See you later charlie.

 

[mantisfart2]

I doubt it really is, it seems like it might just be a few people (possibly one or both using multiple accounts) from a competing forum trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill in hopes of siphoning off a few members.

:lol: conspiracy theory's popping up now, you will be wearing tin foil hats next orin,,,, stop them reading your mind h34r:

 

[PhilinYuma]

Why is this such a big deal?Honestly?

That fish isn't even one that's useful, you put it on a hook and try to catch a bigger fish with it.

Jeez.

You're a country hick, Zoe, and so am I by raising, even though I've spent most of my life in big cities. City folk tend to have a much more idealized view of "Nature" than those who of us who have lived with itl in the country. I'm not going to put a tarantula and a scorpion in a fire ring to see who wins, but like you, I wouldn't think twice about using a small fish as bait for a bigun. Like mantids, fish often produce far too many offspring to keep -- in nature they'd be eaten by predators, so I routinely fed them to other fish. I have no problem wiith folks not wanting to do this, but I am not too keen on being called names for practices that I have followed since well before their parents were born. I think that Orin is right, and that this is not a big deal, though I don't suggest that anyone like Charlie, who complains, is part of a conspiracy.

The sad thing is that there is no evidence that fish "suffer" in the way that we would, if eaten alive, and the slippery slope argument, that our behavior will cause the end of our hobby at the hands of a bored German lawyer, is as absurd as it sounds, so the argument seems rather pointless.

This is the best forum that I have ever belonged to. That is partly due to the policies followed by the administrators and partly to the bunch of lovely members who can discuss anything from mantids to the latest video game. Long may it reign!

 

[Kruszakus]

OMG there is NOTHING wrogn with this video i even give my $300 turtle dozens of FEEDER fish a week and i give my snapping turtle about a dozen LIVE mice a week i give my boa constrictor an adult rat after i slap it against the wall....i even watch as the slaughter house murders a piggy that i raised from a baby....unless you people are living off soy burgers and feeding your mantids nothing but carrots ALOT of you need to get over it...everything eats

There's a reason why people choose mantids as their little pet predators - you don't have to do what you describe. Don't tell people how to feel about using verts as feeder animals, not everyone wants or can get over it. People have different levels of sensitivity to such things - you must take it into consideration.

Also, I don't see what you are getting at here - we are talking about feeding verts to inverts, and you are giving us an example of what is, more or less, occurring in nature all the time (exept for slamming a rat against the wall). But when does a mantis get a crack at eating a fish in its natural environment? Unless a freaking tsunami picks up thousands of sardines and drops them onto tree tops somewhere in a rain forrest, maybe... but that's higly unlikely.

 

[cloud jaguar]

Also, with respect to inverts eating verts - what about those gross water scorpion thingies? I'll wager those eat their share of fish! Seems to me like a mantis is essentially one of those without the "eeek" factor.

Plus, far more fish will die horrible deaths daily from human pollution (let alone fishing) than from any mantids! I guess if someone really tries they can scratch out an argument for or against just about anything. Ultimately, if you don't like bug gore, legs, juice, and other nasty bits this is probably not the hobby for you anyways. Definitely not for the squeamish.

I do wonder is there are any Buddhist mantis hobbyists? It seems that respecting the sacred nature of all life would be disingenuous with feeding mantids live prey - on the other hand, they have to eat!

 

[Mantibama]

Also, with respect to inverts eating verts - what about those gross water scorpion thingies? I'll wager those eat their share of fish! Seems to me like a mantis is essentially one of those without the "eeek" factor.

You actually just reminded me of a great natural example! There is this PBS series called The Shape of Life (available on youtube and a must see for anyone interested in evolution) and there is one episode called "The Conquerors" which specifically deals with arthropods likely being the first phylum to colonize land. At any rate, there is a part in the episode where a dragonfly larvae eats a newt, and I'll wager that's not incredibly rare.

 

[charlie215]

The whole point of the argument has been missed, its not about the fish in paticular, its about us as human beings having control over how we treat the animals we use as feeders and how we show our hobby to the outside world, be that reptiles or mantids. I just can't see what benifit in showing this video has except to please those who gain pleasure in slamming rats againt a wall.

I can't begin to understand your laws regarding mantids in the US but surely you want to protect what you have. Last week it was a fish next week it will be a baby mouse and someone will go further the week after. Please dont gamble with your hobby.

Perhaps i was hasty in asking for my account to be deleted, as i would be very happy to see a conclusion to all this and even if the end is not in the minorities favour it would be nice if the people who can't agree with your ideals could still be classed as members rather than " them animal right activists." I assure you that i'm not.

Conspiracy, we are arguing a subject here thats dear to the hearts of both sides that we both believe in, surely thats it, its being argued here on your forum and its certainly attracted some attention thats good isnt it?

As i said earlier , i'm new to the hobby of mantis keeping, 2 yrs, but i have been keeping all sorts of exotics for over 40 yrs, the internet is also comparitivly new to me and it frightens me to think of the ammo we give to politicians to help them close us down.

Thx for reading ...

 

[bassist]

in slamming rats againt a wall.

This is one of the humane ways to kill a rat/mouse before feeding to a snake as the animal could fight back just because people do it does not mean they enjoy it.

 

[Mantibama]

The whole point of the argument has been missed, its not about the fish in paticular, its about us as human beings having control over how we treat the animals we use as feeders and how we show our hobby to the outside world, be that reptiles or mantids. I just can't see what benifit in showing this video has except to please those who gain pleasure in slamming rats againt a wall. Conspiracy, we are arguing a subject here thats dear to the hearts of both sides that we both believe in, surely thats it, its being argued here on your forum and its certainly attracted some attention thats good isnt it?

As i said earlier , i'm new to the hobby of mantis keeping, 2 yrs, but i have been keeping all sorts of exotics for over 40 yrs, the internet is also comparitivly new to me and it frightens me to think of the ammo we give to politicians to help them close us down.

I didn't miss any point. I've already explained, in a previous post, why I feel all the humbug is unecessary without resorting to citing specific natural occurences of inverts feeding on verts. However, I think citing natural sources does discredit the apparent belief of some of the community that this is a perversion against nature and mantis keepers are mistreating feeder insects. Personally, I find the video interesting. It doesn't mean I gain pleasure from it or like to slam rats against the wall as you seem to think anyone who doesn't have a problem with the video does; I simply find it worthy of viewing. Internet ignorance is an epidemic and generalizations do nothing to prevent it from spreading. In my opinion, it's just as annoying as the "barbaric Americans" mentality that some have espoused (In some cases, with a hint of venom and self-righteousness) throughout this thread. Why can't everyone have their own unique opinion? As far as a conspiracy, I wonder what the IP logs show?

 

[PhilinYuma]

Well, I for one am glad that you are sticking with the forum, Charlie. In an earlier post, I provided credible scientific evidence that fish don't experience pain in the way that we do. I also warned against the continuum fallacy, though I didn't bore everyone by explaining it. I suspect that you didn't see fit to check out either, but you give a nice illustration of why the "slippery slope" argument is a fallacy. You say "last week it was a fish next week it will be a baby mouse and someone will go further the week after." And that's where your argument breaks down. A few months ago, a crazed young man asked about keeping Chinese mantids. His "dream", he told us, was to raise one to a size where it could eat a pinkie (the name here for a new born rat). Several of us hit the complaint button, but Rick was ahead of us and killed the thread. So you see, Charlie, your fears are largely autochthonous (in the psychological sense). Never in the history of the United States has the cruelty, real or imagined, of pet owners been used to ban their husbandry, and I don't see any politician bothering with the mantis hobby when there are so many more interesting targets!

I think that yr most telling argument is, "I just can't see what benefit in showing this video has except to please those who gain pleasure in slamming rats againt a wall." I don't think that it has any benefit and I don't think that it was intended to. But then, neither do Zoe's mantis drawings, and I enjoyed them. For me, the video (and I didn't watch all of it, partly due to my ADD) showed what I learned decades ago, (c.f. Romer and Parsons, The Vertebrate Body 1986, Ch. 15) that a fish's ability to experience pain is limited to the skin (as the "morphine" experiments, cited above, indicate). I was fascinated to see that the fish remained alive and alert long after we would have gone into shock and died. As an aging Brit, you will probably remember what happened to Albert Ramsbottom, who was eaten by a lion, "very slowly by degrees, first his legs and then his knees, 'til he was eaten every bit. No wonder he detested it." In fact, I think that he probably stopped detesting it and went into deep shock by the time the lion got to mid thigh.

Obviously, though, you have never kept snakes, or at least never fed them rats. Snake keepers don't like to feed their charges live rats, as Bassist pointed out, because the struggling rat might damage the snake's eyes with its claws. Hitting the rat's head against a wall is a quick and humane way of killing it. Don't assume that someone is cruel unless you know their motives. Personally, I have never killed a rat in this way. My father, as kind and gentle a cockney (I already had c0ck fighting censored, lets's see what our mindless censor does with that! ) as you would wish to meet, taught us how to break a chicken's neck when I was ten (we sold poultry) and I have done the same thing with small mammals. Quick, painless, and not at all enjoyable for the executioner.

Finally, Charlie, let me make a point that has not been mentioned so far in this thread. The "feeding fish will lead to the destruction of the hobby" fallacy has two members as its principal proponents, Rob Byatt and Christian Schwarz. These are the same guys who have argued that the hobby will be destroyed if we don't call mantids by their binomial names. In both cases, the message is clear, "if you don't follow our practice, you will destroy the hobby," and the target of these polemics are the American members of a forum based in America. I am as British as only an ex pat can be, but I find this attitude contemptible.

Take care!

 

[bassist]

I will point out there IS a video of a Rhombodera adult female(I think!) eating a live pinky mouse on youtube the video has since been flagged due to 'animal cruelty' possibly because of the recorder saying something along the lines of 'he's eatin this ###### whole body dude'

 

[Cosmic]

Firstly can we put this talk of conspiracy therories and an attack of this forum to bed, yes I am a member of another forum (quite a few actually) but in no way are they (we) trying to compete with this forum for who is the best/biggest mantid hobbyist forum but regionilized forums for hobbyists within in the same country/region which we use for an easier exchange of species, although international members do join from time to time.

We often refer U.S members here as it is easier for them to obtain species within their own country as shipping across the "pond" can be difficult.

I'm not sure if Peter or other members where referring to my post but I was only stating my personal views and it was in no way ment as a direct attack on this forum, I apologise if I did cause offense.

It is a difference in culture as in the UK you cannot buy live feeder vertebrates not even feeder fish for use as bait for fishing, the closest you can get is £1.00 guppys which would work out very expensive, all feeder vertebrates are sold frozen, be this sprats, pinkies,rats etc...

I do understand the need for feeding live feeders from time to time, and I have on many occassions had fish eaten by other fish.

If it is the norm I would imagine it would be widely excepted, but it is what I am used to so I will continue not to feed live vertebrates to invertebrates but that is just my own personal choice as it is yours.

Just to add I do like this forum, and will hopefully continue to use.

 

[sufistic]

If it is the norm I would imagine it would be widely excepted, but it is what I am used to so I will continue not to feed live vertebrates to invertebrates but that is just my own personal choice as it is yours.

+1.

 

[Peter Clausen]

I would simply like to re-mention what I pointed out fifty posts or so ago...

Nothing about keeping mantises in captivity is in line with nature's ideal. We choose which unlucky cricket they will eat from a pet store tub of thousands, how big their habitat is going to be, force them to mate with their brothers, subject them to different day/night and temperature cycles than they'd experience in nature. How many of the fruit flies in our fruit fly cultures die meaningless lives without ever being fed to a mantis? Come on, be honest. Have we not all heartlessly had a fly culture for only a few mantises where the bulk of the culture died, having never been given meaning to their lives as food for the pets? The list goes on and on.

As I said before, every person that complains about how unnatural it is for a mantis to eat a fish is hypocrite (if they keep any mantises or animals in captivity).

And yet all these people come onto the forum and chat about what great fun it is to keep their prisoners and feed their prisoners and essentially play God to the miracle of each individual prisoner's life.

You cannot be human and walk without leaving a footprint. It is fine to say you feel feeding a (feeder) fish to a captive mantis is "wrong". But who is casting the stone? The same people throwing them are hypocrites. Those who would make friendly arguments that we are hypocrites in degrees (me being worse) can consider what is more natural...

1. Keeping a mantis in an unnatural setting (captivity)

or

2. Feeding a fish to a mantis that would only encounter one under rare circumstances in nature

Clearly, the latter is slightly more natural. (#2)

For the record, I didn't gain any pleasure in the act of filming this. I thought it was...

and in THIS order:

1. better than flushing a fish that my water dragon wouldn't eat down the toilet (gave meaning to its life)

2. Nutritional for the mantis (which only gets flies, roaches and crickets usually)

2. Interesting (selfishly)

3. A (publicly-shared via Youtube) testament to the character of a predator that would obviously eat a fish if it came across one

When I use the term "hypocrite", I don't mean it as a personal attack on anybody in particular. People are being hypocritical when they object to something so similar to what they are doing with no apparent conscience whatsoever. Of course, I do consider the possibility that all these "ethical" folks feel tremendously more guilty for keeping mantises than disapproval over fish videos, but I already accounted for reflections in a previous post.

 

[sufistic]

Solid. Big +1 for Peter's logic. Rearing and breeding any animal is unnatural, but we still do it. Therefore, an argument based on 'ethics' would be hypocritical because what we do is 'unethical' in the first place.

 

[Emile.Wilson]

I will point out there IS a video of a Rhombodera adult female(I think!) eating a live pinky mouse on youtube the video has since been flagged due to 'animal cruelty' possibly because of the recorder saying something along the lines of 'he's eatin this ###### whole body dude'

I saw that video, it was pretty nasty, the poor mouse was squeling.