Introvertebrate
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Diapause for an ooth.
- Thread starter CoolMantid
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CoolMantid
Well-known member
Is something wrong with being young? Is something wrong with asking a question that might be very wrong? That is the point of learning! Gripen and me both got the same idea of you calling me a "grade school idiot" You did not actually say that but we both interpreted it.
ismart
Well-known member
The limbata ooth should be raised to 85F, and mist every few days.The European ooth should be put in the fridge for at least 3 months. before you attempt to incubate it.
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meaganelise9
Well-known member
I agree that there has been some rudeness in this thread.. but Phil's post was interesting. I didn't know all of that. So if I am understanding correctly, the proper stages of development of the embryos are controlled by the amount of daylight and the temperature? I am glad I'm just leaving my religiosa ooth outside for winter now. I think nature knows best, and it sounds like hatching them prematurely can cause problems in the developing embryos. They need that time to grow, right? We don't want to be selfish with our bugs. Hatching them early could mean immediate gratification for us but unhealthy nymphs. This makes me wonder about some of the more rare species that have early, seemingly inexplicable deaths.
PhilinYuma
Well-known member
@harterem No. Being young is great! Enjoy it while you can! Also nothing wrong with asking a question. Even misreading the answer is no big deal for such a complex idea when you are 12, which is why I offered to extend Lunarstorm's accurate answer with some more, interesting stuff (did you know, for example that some insects produce a substance which predates antifreeze? Great stuff!) There certainly are retarded (developmentally delayed is the PC term) grade school students, but they grow into retarded adults, so obviously, folks don't become smarter as they get older(though some studies have suggested that energetic use of your ratiocinative abiliy might push up your IQ score by a few points, and vice versa), just better educated.
I also gave you the chance to let me know if you were interested in learning about this. Remember, this does not help me; I am the one doing all the work, but from your answer it seems that you are more focussed on your misinterpretation of what I said.
@Ismart: I have done that 80-85F hatching strategy for S. limbata, Paul,but it is not "natural". Do you remember that odd debate on diapause involving Salamonis about three years back? Like hartarem, I was a bit hazy on diapause in those days and thought that the photoperiod affected the ooth instead of the mom. At any rate, I left a cuppla S. limbata ooths outside, where they had daytime temps in the 50s/60F range and nighttime temps a little above freezing. I brought them in in March and they produced some pretty hardy nymphs. I know that you cannot do this in the Frozen North, my friend, but you are always welcome down here in Yuma, AZ!
I also gave you the chance to let me know if you were interested in learning about this. Remember, this does not help me; I am the one doing all the work, but from your answer it seems that you are more focussed on your misinterpretation of what I said.
@Ismart: I have done that 80-85F hatching strategy for S. limbata, Paul,but it is not "natural". Do you remember that odd debate on diapause involving Salamonis about three years back? Like hartarem, I was a bit hazy on diapause in those days and thought that the photoperiod affected the ooth instead of the mom. At any rate, I left a cuppla S. limbata ooths outside, where they had daytime temps in the 50s/60F range and nighttime temps a little above freezing. I brought them in in March and they produced some pretty hardy nymphs. I know that you cannot do this in the Frozen North, my friend, but you are always welcome down here in Yuma, AZ!
ismart
Well-known member
@Phil. Yes, it is not natural, but it can be done! This could also be said for Chinese, or even carolinas. Geez! I'm going to have to go back to the archives to look for your debate with Salamonis. :lol: I found the limbata ooth hatches without a diapause yielded me plenty of strong nymphs. I never had a problem hatching limbatas this way, nor Chinese, or Carolinas. The only species that is most effected by not having a diapause were the Europeans. I always found the ooths would either never hatch, or the few nymphs that did were weak, and would die soon after.
PhilinYuma
Well-known member
Yes, of course, I agree. The European mantis is the only one in culture in the US whose eggs are in diapause when laid. That diapause will not be broken and the eggs will not start to develop again until they undergo a cold spell. I think that the confusion lies in the fact that many native mantids' eggs, although they do not need to be released from diapause, do, like S. limbata mentioned here, seem to benefit from a cool period in whuich they can develop slowly, but are not dependent on it.
@ Gripen. You still don't understand diapause, do you? Cold doesn't start diapause, it breaks it!
yes i know what diapause is. i just stated without a cold period europeans will not hatch.Yes, of course, I agree. The European mantis is the only one in culture in the US whose eggs are in diapause when laid. That diapause will not be broken and the eggs will not start to develop again until they undergo a cold spell. I think that the confusion lies in the fact that many native mantids' eggs, although they do not need to be released from diapause, do, like S. limbata mentioned here, seem to benefit from a cool period in whuich they can develop slowly, but are not dependent on it.
@ Gripen. You still don't understand diapause, do you? Cold doesn't start diapause, it breaks it!
CoolMantid
Well-known member
Wait I am confused. Ok Right now I ahve a Chinese, S. Limbata, and European ooths. Which should go out in thwe cold and which should stay inside?
ismart
Well-known member
The S. limbata, and Chinese ooths you can leave indoors if you want them to hatch now. The European ooth should be left outside to break diapause. Bring the European ooth indoors around April to begin incubation. They should hatch in May.
CoolMantid
Well-known member
Thanks!
PhilinYuma
Well-known member
Perhaps I have you all wrong, Gripen and you really have mastered this phenomenon. Could you make clear , though, for an old fart like me, how you diapause the ooth of a European mantis? By chilling it?
Phil i never called you an old fart :tt2: i never pretended to have mastered the art of chilling ooths but i do think it is quite simple. stick them in the refrigerator mist them ever once and a while, and there you have it. take it out of the refrigerator, nymphs hatch then your done.
meaganelise9
Well-known member
isn't that different than being outside though? there's more than just cold.
lunarstorm
Well-known member
Phil is being tricky, but I think he's got a very good point that might be missed by some. Please note the bolded text below:
It's up to you to figure out the right answer.
If this was a quiz and you answered with something like "The cold temperatures of the fridge begin the diapause process for the European mantis ootheca." that would be incorrect and you'd miss this question on the quiz.
It's up to you to figure out the right answer.
jcal
Well-known member
ismart
Well-known member
Unfavorable conditions is only part of it. Diapause in inverts is also driven by internal hormones. Which cannot start and complete it's work the moment harsh environmental changes happen, or come to an end. diapause also has to have internal clock. Photoperiod is often used for this.
Light (Photoperiod) also plays an important role! I personally believe the reason why your fridge works well is not just to regulate temps, but also keeps the ooth in almost constant darkness. The fridge light only goes on when you open the fridge. I guess in my case i would be better off leaving my ooths outside. My fridge is opened a lot!
:lol:
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