Heat lighting length on time

[superfreak]

We are all just hobbyists, not specialists, Scott. I completely understand your frustration at the lack of understanding here. Ive been in this situation time and time again (on other forums). Often its simply a matter of phrasing your opinion in a more accessible way. In this case youve been wonderful with that (for the record i completely agree with you!). I believe this is more a matter of posing your question to the wrong group of people. Youre right - you are banging your head against a brick wall! Because the members of this forum are (to my knowledge) not entomologists or mantid specialists. The best anyone here can give is a summation of their experience which will often be limited by factors such as finance an convenience.

Im not going to tell you how i think you should raise your mantids. I think its fantastic to have someone truly dedicated in this hobby. Perhaps if you start breeding and selling mantids which are raised in optimal conditions your stock will exceed others' in quality (this opinion comes from my limited experience with purchasing other inverts).

The best advice i can give you at this point is todo some research and find out where there might be someone you can contact with some serious entomological expertise - possibly a professor or researcher.

So stop banging your head against the wall - every time you do it evokes a response and causes you undue stress.

Peace and Love

- Olga

 

[sidewinder]

Olga,

Thank you for commenting.

Actually, I am not frustrated or stressed at all. I made the mistake providing a definition of insanity and saying that I would not bang my head against the wall anymore. The former reference was pointing out that I was taking the same tack as others before me and it was insane to expect a different result. The later comment was equating that insane action with beating my head against a wall. I did not make these comments to suggest I was frustrated.

In regards to your hobbyists versus specialists comment, I don't think it justifies what I see here. Why? Tropical fish are a great example. I don't know anyone that makes a reasonable attempt at keeping tropical fish that does not include a filter, light, and a heater in their tank setups. It's a standard part of the habitat provided. This is true for 5 gallon tank setups all the way to 200 gallon tank setups. The vast majority of these people aren't specialists. The filter is their to keep the water clean. The light is provided for viewing pleasure and to simulate daylight. The heater is there to keep the water close to what they lived in in nature.

If one considers the tropical fish scenario, why do most here view it as outlandish to suggest that those that keep tropical mantids should provide their mantids with warmth, humidity, and photoperiod somewhat like they would have in nature? And that this idea is somehow reserved for the specialist? Heating pads or tape are not that expensive. Nor are temperature gauges. Nor is a substrate that will hold moisture and a spay bottle.

I know, the insanity of it all.....

Scott

 

[superfreak]

But wont tropical fish die without such care (genuine question, as i dont know!)? also, as far as i can tell, for most people tropical fish are a big investment and those who purchase them take every possible measure to ensure their couple of thousand bucks doesnt simply end up (literally!) down the drain. With mantids this often isnt the case as they are much cheaper and many only need the most basic of housing.

 

[sidewinder]

But wont tropical fish die without such care (genuine question, as i dont know!)? also, as far as i can tell, for most people tropical fish are a big investment and those who purchase them take every possible measure to ensure their couple of thousand bucks doesnt simply end up (literally!) down the drain. With mantids this often isnt the case as they are much cheaper and many only need the most basic of housing.

Olga,

More insanity.......

I am not comparing the cost of keeping tropical fish to the cost of keeping mantids. But, tropical fish don't need elaborate housing. You can get a basic 12 gallon setup, with everything you need, for less than $100 US.

There are many hardy tropical fish that will survive room temperature or colder water. But they will show distress. The colors will be drab and they will be lethargic compared to what they normally would be. They won't be their normal active selves. They will be more susceptible to disease and unexplained death. They won't eat as well. They won't breed. In other words, they won't thrive.

The stress tropical mantids are exposed to if kept too cool and with not enough humidity will have the same deleterious effects. The effects are just harder to see. And they won't thrive.

But, yes, keeping tropical mantids should be less expensive than keeping tropical fish. Even if you do provide some basic heating for the mantids.

How much does a heat mat cost? A 16 watt heat mat that measures 10.5” x 11” costs $17.95 US. If that breaks the bank, well, you can't afford to keep tropical mantids in the first place.

Hey, if your house is about 75° F all time and the light you use during the day provides more heat, your "room temperature" is perfectly fine. Just make sure you keep the humidity level up around 50 to 70 %. But, some houses are kept a lot cooler than that. During the winter, my house is never over 70° F during the day. At night, it can get as low as 58° F. Humidity can get as low as 10 percent. So I know I need to provide some heat and humidity for any tropical animal species I keep.

I just don't get the push back on the concept of providing heat if the environment is colder. I didn't realize that suggesting one buy a $17.95 heat mat made me an elitist scientist!

Scott

 

[Peter Clausen]

There is no argument that providing warmth to bugs allows them to grow more quickly. There is no argument that this, in combination with plenty of food will cause them to thrive.

However, my advice to new hobbyists goes like this.

1. If you keep your mantis warmer it will need to feed more often (and is therefore more likely to starve if a person doesn't make it to the pet store to buy crickets after two weeks). This mantis will grow more quickly and die sooner. This is the natural condition for this mantis that originates from a tropical place.

2. If you keep your mantis cooler it will need to feed less often. This mantis will grow much more slowly and its life will be greatly extended. This is not the natural condition for your pet and therefore the word "thrive" is not appropriate. However, you will enjoy the life of your pet for a longer period of time.

Many people passing through this forum are just here because they brought a mantis in from the cold a few weeks ago. Others are here to raise a single mantis as a pet, perhaps for their children. These are the "lurkers". You may never see a single post from them, but they come in here looking for just enough information to provide a basic level of care for their pet. For these people, I think it is best to recommend they do not use a heat source (situation #2, above). Heat sources are actually a common cause of mismolts because inexperienced keepers are not able to provide proper/consistent humidity to offset it (with mismolts being the #1 cause/concern for captive mantis health). Say a person is doing really well for a couple months, but missed 3 days of misting the cage and then their mantis suddenly mismolts. In this case, we have done them and their mantis a disservice because we recommended they apply heat which is unnecessary and dangerous if not researched and applied in responsible manner (and let's face it...most people don't ask the questions that you do, nor does the majority of the population really value arthropod life). Even as an experienced keeper of mantises, I still make mistakes with my heat or humidity sometimes. For this reason, I do advocate simplicity in caring for our pets if you are new (Katnapper was and I'm still tying this all back to her situation since she started this thread). Responsibly heated environments will allow them to thrive, but a dead mantis is no good to itself or its keeper and this is often the unfortunate result for many new keepers that try to do too much too soon. They don't have the fundamentals down like providing suitable molting surfaces, humidity and removing large feeder insects that are uneaten for days on end. Hobbyists that stick around for awhile learn through experience with their pets and through sharing knowledge with other keepers.

For you Scott, I advocate keeping your mantises warm and well fed on a day/night cycle that approximates their natural conditions. You are definitely the personality type to excel and I fully agree that providing conditions that allow mantises to thrive in a natural way is THE ideal! However and again, perfection does not exist, nor do many enjoy the same challenges that the hobby has to offer as you do. If I were a mantis, I would want to be your pet. :wub:

 

[sidewinder]

Peter,

I'll get on my soapbox one more time....

Most people here do not live in the tropics. So the species they find locally and bring into their home is not likely to be tropical so what I am saying is not at issue here. They don't need to worry about heat or humidity but misting is needed so the mantid can drink.

A thermometer, a spray bottle, and a coconut fiber, moss, or even a paper towel substrate, along with a little bit of diligence would pretty much solve all of the issues your bring up about using a heat source when keeping tropical mantids. This is not complicated and not extremely expensive. You don't need thermostats or humidity gauges. But you need some level of discipline since you must mist on a regular basis.

Who said that keeping tropical mantids should be a zero effort endeavor compared to keeping a local temperate species? Since no one has any idea how hot or cold "room temperature" is in any given household, I think recommending simplicity (don't worry about temperature) to the "hobbyist" is doing a disservice to them, the mantids, and the hobby itself. It makes these hobbyists think that tropical mantids will be just fine in much colder environments than they expect. I think that anyone keeping tropical animal species need to be made aware of their special basic needs and they need to make an effort to meet those basic needs. After all, a hobbyist is supposed to learn more about their "hobby" than the average joe and they apply what they learn to become better hobbyists.

Your advice actually discourages people from keeping their tropical mantids in appropriate conditions.

If someone does not want to put in the minimal extra expense and effort required to keep tropical mantids, keeping local mantid species during their normal season is the way to go and what should be recommended.

I am still amazed at the level of push back I, and others before me, get here on this topic. To most "hobbyists" I know, what I am saying is so standard that it is not often discussed. Providing an environment similar to what the animal experiences in nature is a basic tenet of any animal keeping hobby.

Scott

 

[PhilinYuma]

But wont tropical fish die without such care (genuine question, as i dont know!)?

There you have it, Superfreak! This thread has talked a lot about stress without much discussion of its effects. The huge tropical fish industry depends on the death of a solid proportion of its product to keep going (how much? Way back at the end of the C20, Australia was marketing 13 million tropical fish and Koi per year, domestically!). And much of the "aquarium equipment", that they sell, like activated charcoal packets that fail in 2-3 days, is junk. In one year, the biggest seller in the U.S. trade was a plastic "space dog" that, when connected to an air pump would rise to the surface, blowing bubbles, and then sink again. Were I a fish, that would stress the heck out of me! Space invaders!!

I have never seen a study on the effects of stress on fecundity among inverts, but there are plenty of examples among the verts where fatal stress is a natural concommitant of reproduction. By the time that a salmon gets to his spawning ground, he is starving, his jaws are fused together and his scales have sloughed off, yet that doesn't seem to affect his breeding ability. Stags are so stressed at the end of the breeding season (from fighting other males, not sex !) that many dominant males do not survive the winter.

Perhaps the commonest signs of stress in captive animals is disease due to bad living conditions. There is a sub industry in tropical fish medications for everything from "ich" to "bloat", and the fact that we see so little sickness among our mantises suggests to me that most mantis keepers are doing a pretty good job.

One stressor that might affect mantis fecundity is starvation. My first S. limbata ooth, laid by a female that I had just captured, was tiny compared with what she has laid in captivity but within the normal range for those produced in the wild. She was, if not starving, ravenous when I caught her. There is very little doubt in my mind that captive raised mantises lead a much easier and safer life than they do in the wild, though as, I think Peter mentioned, all the food and warmth that we give them may shorten their lives.

Scott: Like many other contributors to this thread, I can only commend and admire your wish to provide your mantises with optimal care, but to win us over to the practice of those principals, it would really help if you could show us the improvements in size, stamina and fecundity, etc. produced by their implementation. I am a Missouran at heart and look forward to seeing and hearing about the results of your program.

 

[sidewinder]

PhilinYuma,

Here, again, is a quote from the Rearing and Breeding Mantids chapter of The Praying Mantids:

"[Causes of mortality]...anything that disrupts the normal hormonal patterns of nymphal development can also cause problems. This underscores the need for stable and appropriate lighting, temperature, humidity, and food supply."

Scott

 

[PhilinYuma]

PhilinYuma,

Here, again, is a quote from the Rearing and Breeding Mantids chapter of The Praying Mantids:

"[Causes of mortality]...anything that disrupts the normal hormonal patterns of nymphal development can also cause problems. This underscores the need for stable and appropriate lighting, temperature, humidity, and food supply."

Well, Scott, I'm certainly not one to argue with that scholarly tome. In fact, let me add another caveat. Members of this forum who take aspirin and drink coffee, should be aware that, though symptom-free now, they are still at risk for:

Severe allergic reactions (rash; hives; itching; difficulty breathing; tightness in the chest; swelling of the mouth, face, lips, or tongue); black or bloody stools; confusion; diarrhea; drowsiness; hearing loss; ringing in the ears; severe or persistent dizziness; severe or persistent stomach pain or heartburn; shakiness; trouble sleeping; vomiting.

It's a dangerous world outside of the lab!

 

[sidewinder]

What the heck do aspirin and drinking coffee have to do with what we are discussing in this thread? There is no correlation.

Scott

 

[PhilinYuma]

What the heck do aspirin and drinking coffee have to do with what we are discussing in this thread? There is no correlation.

Scott:

Gosh darn those extended metaphors, they frequently get me in trouble. Perhaps this will make things clearer.

If you are considering taking coffee and aspirin, you can either do so, and see if you have any problems with the regimen and correct for them, or you can read everything you can about the pharmacology of ASA and caffeine before you start. Unfortunately, you may become so concerned with the possible dangers involved that you never take either, and won't enjoy their benefits. So it is with getting into the mantis hobby.

I suspect, though I may be wrong, that you joined this forum for the same reasons that I did, to learn about raising tropical mantises and swap ideas and experiences with other members. I have acquired my first tropical species (ghosts) on the recommendation of Lotusmile that this was a good beginner's species (so far, she's right!) and continue to learn all I can. making mistakes and correcting for them the best I can along the way.

You, however, still do not appear to have gotten your feet wet, but tell one experienced breeder that one of her suggested practices is "tacky" and another, that he is damaging the hobby, to which you only peripherally belong, by recommending what is "easy". Not only that, but you feel that it is apropriate to educate us on matters of mantis raising that many members have been practicing successfuly for years and you have not yet even tried.

You may wish to consider setting aside Rearing and Breeding Mantids for long enough to actually go out and get some of these critters and raise them. If your theories are as sound as you believe, there will have to be a good payoff.

Mija:

I know that I promised not to get involved with this thread: my bad. I'll stop now, pop a couple of aspirins and have a nice cup of coffee.

 

[Peter Clausen]

Beating the dead horse one last time (think I read that somewhere else, recently)...

I have raised lots of temperate and tropical species. I notice no difference in their care requirements, and thus no reason to over-complicate my efforts in their care. I maintain that it is inadvisable to provide heat unless your goal is either:

1. To raise them as quickly as possible for breeding purposes (i.e. you are a dealer)

2. You have an ethical inclination to provide them with conditions that most closely approximate the natural habitat.

I wonder if Dr. David Yager LIVES with mantises. Setting up experiments with particular controls is a form of bias. To put it bluntly (again), my "research" shows that all the species that are available to the general hobby do well, even thrive, within environmental conditons that most people consider comfortable.

Quoting the mantis bible is a way of life for many people, but it is not the only pathway to truth. Experience, they say, is the best teacher.

To be clear, I find it very easy to raise "available" tropical mantises in my home without heat sources. (I still use them occasionally, but I keep my home at 69 degrees at night and 70 during the day). There's some data we can all chew on!

I'm reminded of the Bruce Lee movie where somebody is pointing at the moon and the disciple is looking at the finger (and thereby missing "all the heavenly glory").

I have to be done with this or I'm going to start having fun with it...that creative tickle...

 

[Katnapper]

Hmmm.... what an interesting thread this turned out to be. I never expected such an in-depth debate to erupt; But it has given me food for thought on several points, and has satisfied what I needed to know. I finally bought a thermometer/humidity gage 2 days ago, which has also helped me get a much better idea of what conditions I currently have them in. My "lows" were 59f and 60f, and my "highs" have been 71f and 74f. That was with the heat lamp on during the daylight hours, and off at night. And my humidity levels were 33% to 40%. I'm not going for scientific perfection, but I've decided it's important to me to make temp and humidity levels a little closer to optimum.

I want to thank you all for your input... it has all helped me in coming to my own conclusions of what I need to do. And it has helped me finally make a decision I'd been struggling with for some time... about where I want to permanently house my mantids. It felt so good when I came to the conclusion of the perfect space for them last night. I discussed it with my husband today, and he is going to help me turn the spare bedroom into my mantid room. Good thing he agreed, because I already went out this morning and bought an electric room heater (the Vornado Vh2 Whole Room Vortex Heater) . And thank goodness we didn't sell our humidifier (we were planning to, as our new home has a whole-house humidifier built in). I'm going to put it in the mantid room, along with the thermostatic heater, and hopefully create mantis heaven.

I guess I'm a little more fervent about my new hobby than some other newbies might be; But I'm really into it, have the available space, and I believe I at least have a well rounded perspective on the subject now. The room heater was a bit more than I expected to spend on temp. control, but I think it will be worth it. Looking at the pricing on heat mats in Pet-Co today decided me on the room heater. In the end, for as many containers and mantids as I want and expect to be keeping, I think it is definitely the cheaper and easier option. It shouldn't really run that much either, just enough to boost the temp of that room a bit. And I can set the thermostat to a specific temp... I like that!

So.... my next question...... Has anyone, or is anyone using a room heater like this in combination with a humidifier (box type, like a piece of furniture) for their mantids? Any tips or caveats you might suggest? I'll still be misting regularly, btw. Thanks again for helping me out with my questions... I do really appreciate the input.

PS... I love Bruce Lee and that clip is classic! LOL

 

[Peter Clausen]

I edited out the video clip link that I had posted earlier. It occurred to me (later) that it might not be perceived in the same way it was conceived. I had posted it some time after my written reference to it and was just excited to have found it.

 

[superfreak]

Katnapper - id almost forgotten this was your thread! Im glad its helped you come to your decision. Unfortunately my babies are all still housed in various aquariums scattered around my room for now. Hopefully i can pull it all together this summer and possibly even build a nice display case!

Scott - I think everyone here has been far more gracious than you deserve. Everyones just putting forward their opinions, not taking a personal stab at you. Furthermore, most everyone here has kindly thanked you for your opinion, told you that they think its a FANTASTIC direction in which to take the hobby and yet you seem so stuck in the rut youve dug out for yourself that you completely refuse to see that NOONES SAYING YOURE WRONG.

Until now. My apologies, but i think i was more than supportive. Your repetitive argument with yourself is just a waste of space. We get the picture. Go buy a heat mat! Noones stopping you. But dont tell everyone else that its the only way, as many here have already pointed out (much more eloquently than myself) that its clearly not.

Anyway, im off to go play with my mantids and likely stop them from thriving by stressing them out too much! But considering i keep them partly for the fun of watching insects being eaten alive - i dont care!

 

[sidewinder]

superfreak,

Hmm......I don't see where I have taken anything in this discussion personally. Don't confuse being an advocate of a position with emotional investment in that position.

The only reason I have continued the dialog is that others have participated in the discussion and offered up ideas and points of view different than my own. The fact that they disagree with me (how did you miss that? ) means I have not been persuasive enough in my arguments and the fact I disagree with them means they have not persuaded me with their arguments. Discussion and disagreement are healthy, to a point. But, as has been noted by myself and Peter, this discussion has past that point. I only responded because posts were directed at me and my position. Almost everyone in an argument wants to have the last word. Peter bailed on it in his last post and I was going to stop too until your maligning post.

My argument is only repetitive because my position has not changed. Peter's argument has been repetitive as well. He has not changed his position. I never said there was only one way. My argument was that conditions dictate what one should do. We disagreed on what those conditions are and are not.

As an academic, you had better get used to "argumentum ad nauseam" or "argumentum ad infinitum".

Scott

 

[Katnapper]

I like your truthful insight, superfreak... and your bluntness made me smile. I hope we both can get our mantid spaces situated how we like them. Maybe I'll post some before and after pics when the move from the bathroom is complete, lol.

 

[Katnapper]

Salomonis, the different opinions of everyone did very much help me to come to my own conclusions. Differing opinions are a good thing if they each have merit and can provoke more comprehensive and enlightened thought... which they did. It did get to a point of repetitive nitpicking though...

 

[sidewinder]

Katnapper,

I am glad you found the discussion useful.

Your mantid setup sounds like it is going to be great. I don't think my wife is going to be as understanding as your husband. The temperatures in your house sounds very much like what I see in mine. I won't have a full room to use so I have to be more creative. If only.....

My long term plan is to build a 42" wide by 67" tall by 18" deep enclosure with multiple shelves that will hold a variety of mantid "homes". The space will be heated and the heating elements will be controlled by a proportional thermostat (probably using my Herpstat Pro). I haven't decided how I am going to control humidity. Since I will be spraying each mantid "home" daily anyway, I will probably use a couple of humidity gauges in the enclosure to guide me.

Have fun!

Scott

 

[superfreak]

Sorry Scott!

Lets just say i forgot to take my medication today

Good luck to all with your mantid endeavors. May the mantis god bring you plentiful bounty