Heat lighting length on time

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Katnapper,

Keep in mind you are taking the 'experience' of someone who admits to having no track record. A big problem with keeping the temperature too high is problems with humidity and ventilation that otherwise wouldn't have to be dealt with. You may be able to overcome these difficulties created or your mantids may die. These are not problems associated with tropical fish because they live in water.

 
Katnapper,

As you amass hundreds of mantids, remember that each container may have its own micro-climate in terms of humidity, etc. Also, the area near your ceiling may be significantly warmer than the area near your floor. I put certain mantises on top shelves and others on bottom shelves (males that need to sloooow down to mature at the same time as females, for example.).

Consider Scott's suggestion for spraying each container daily if you are going to be raising your mantises at higher than typical household temperatures.

Again, unless your containers have a lot of ventilation, the ambient/room humidity may be a non-factor to what's happening inside the containers. I do recommend that you standardize your selection of containers so that all variables will be equal. I use vials for young nymphs and 32 ounce containers for older nymphs. I move sub-adult mantises to molting cages temporarily, until they have successfully molted.

As you are making attempts to control the climate in the room, be sure to pay attention to what's going on in the containers. Too much humidity has consequences including the need to clean the containers more often. Bits of frass and fallen feeder insect parts mold much more quickly in high humidity and temperature. Also, molting surfaces that are too wet have the potential to cause problems.

I know some very successful hobbyist that provide a lot of water to their feeder insects and actually never mist their cages or provide drinking water for their mantises and they claim not to have a regular problem with mismolts. I believe them, but I still mist all my containers on every other feeding or so. Older and more unusually shaped mantises tend to have more difficulty molting, so pay particular attention to them.

I agree that this has been a productive discussion.

 
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Orin said:
Katnapper,Keep in mind you are taking the 'experience' of someone who admits to having no track record. A big problem with keeping the temperature too high is problems with humidity and ventilation that otherwise wouldn't have to be dealt with. You may be able to overcome these difficulties created or your mantids may die. These are not problems associated with tropical fish because they live in water.
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Orin,

While I lack experience in keeping tropical mantids, I do have experience with temperate mantids. I have 40 years of experience raising and breeding insects, arachnids, fish, reptiles, and amphibians. Heck, cats and dogs too. Many of the arachnids, fish, reptiles, and amphibians have been tropical. Breeding some of the fish I have had over the years makes tropical mantid care look completely uncomplicated.

Scott

 
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Peter,

Based on what Katnapper is doing with her room, do you think net cages along with a fan to keep the air moving would be the way to go?

Scott

 
May the mantis god bring you plentiful bounty :)

SuperFreak:

As one Latin spouting, elitist academic to another, was your reference to the "mantis god" simply a typographical error or does it betray a deeper, more fundamental misunderstanding of the Mantis Goddess?

Frankly, I would expect that even a schoolboy in the Lower Fifth would be familiar with Hesiod's "Mantisa mia tensia est" in which he states quite clearly, (p.ccxlviii), "Furthermore, though temperatures and photoperiods may wax or wane, She is now, and forever shall be the the One Supreme Goddess, so take that then thou SuperFreak." [My translation].

It is true that Jacobus Staminatus, a contemporary of Vergilius Maro, [personal correspondence] claims that "Even now, the villagers outside of Rome gather to celebrate the summer solstice with a bawdy ritual in which they act out the Mantis Goddess's devouring of her mate's head in the ceremony known as 'Donare Capitum'," but in the absence of any extant scholarly support for the existence of such a ritual, I cannot give this story credence.

I trust that this will be both instructive and edifying and that you will accept it in the spirit in which it is offered. If not, I shall be happy to repeat it again tomorrow.

And in the words of the Immortal Bard, TTFN!

 
Hi Scott,

As before, I wouldn't recommend a fan unless you've raised a few mantises and are familiar with the fundamentals, especially in combination with heat unless you can effectively maintain consistent humidity in the "room". It just sounds like adding the (unnecessary) elements of wind and fire into the already challenging process of molting. Of course, applied correctly you could soon be charging admission to Mantis Heaven...and, drumroll please...mantises would be dying just to get there! (as opposed to getting there just to die)

At the same time, there are situations where heat is a good thing and I've tried to be careful not to say that anything I've suggested is an absolute-all-the-time rule. If I see that a mantis is molting I will assess the situation. I might, very carefully, spray into the container (away from the mantis) and place the mantis in the warm cupboard above my bearded dragon's cage. This creates additional humidity in the cage. I would not do this if the mantis had chosen a precarious surface to molt from. If the molt has come as a surprise (to me) and the cage looks dry and the goddess whispers in my ear, I will often help. I've been to those festivals, by the way. Few know about them because few males live to tell. Women never tell and not every male is consumed. If you survive, believe me, it's worth the risk, if only once in your life! ;)

In nature (and in Scott's cages [sorry, Scott...easy target]), mantises have more control over when and where they molt. They choose from an endless variety of potential molting surfaces for a good one and may have some sense for timing their molt to day/night/humidity (I didn't read that in a book, so I have no reference to quote.)

Still, I advocate experience and simplicity in the beginning. I find mantis care very simple because I've made every mistake there is to make (numerous times). I don't use net cages for any but adult mantises because of the humidity challenges.

 
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salomonis said:
While I lack experience in keeping tropical mantids....Scott
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You should be careful about giving advice without warning the person about your lack of experience at the same time. I don't share your lack of experience.

 
Orin said:
You should be careful about giving advice without warning the person about your lack of experience at the same time. I don't share your lack of experience.
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I think you hit the nail on the head!!

Get some experience with "tropical" mantids (not Tropical fish, reptiles, amphibians, etc) first Scott, before preaching about how they should or shouldn't be kept.

 
Orin said:
You should be careful about giving advice without warning the person about your lack of experience at the same time. I don't share your lack of experience.
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Orin,

Based on what most people apparently do here, I don't lack experience in keeping tropical mantids because they keep tropical mantids just like I kept temperate mantids. Been there, there done that.....

:p

Scott

 
Peter,

When I mentioned a fan for Katnapper's setup, I was talking about a very low speed fan just to keep the air moving around (~1 MPH) the room so humidity and temperature stay somewhat even. If she was able to get the humidity throughout the room consistent at 50 to 60 percent, would net cages make some sense? The idea being that she would not have to worry about the micro-climate of each enclosure, right? Mist for drinking water and that would be about it.

That's how I did a room with many Chamaeleo jacksonii in large net enclosures and and it worked quite well.

Scott

 
I'd personally be concerned about the room molding, unless it were a tile/vinyl bathroom, but that's besides your point, I guess. Even most bathrooms will start to mold if you don't suck the humidity out in between your showers.

I can see the eventual destination in your line of questioning and yes, Scott, almost perfect conditions are almost perfect! It just sounds like a lot of work to me, but yes...we are getting right down to the fine details, aren't we?

Friends in Malaysia use net or screened cages for all sorts of critters (outdoors) and these work great.

It may be easier to move to a tropical location ;) Oh but "easy" isn't the goal here ;) X2

 
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Good question, Scott. The room does have a ceiling fan, and I had been debating about the pros and cons of using it. On the lowest speed (pretty slow, can't really feel any noticeable "wind" effect when standing under it), if I keep the humidity up, it might help keep the air temps more consistent, no?

Scott, it's too bad you don't have a whole room to utilize and play with for your mantids. No doubt you'd have fun maxing it out. I hope you're eventually able to come up with a setup that pleases you. :) Have you looked in the furniture sections of stores at the storage cabinet options they have now? Maybe you can find something that works for you and would be pleasing to your wife as well.

It's not that my husband is that understanding. He's probably on a similar level with your wife, as far as tolerence to the "bugs." I think it's just come down to the better choice of two evils for him. My setup in the bathroom has been steadily growing until it's almost ridiculously crowded in there now. :rolleyes: Warning and apologizing to any visitors who need to use the bathroom is really wearing on him. Not to mention he says it creeps him out to have "all these bugs and worms and things looking at me when I'm trying to take a pi**!" So even though he has significant reservations about sacrificing the guest room, his resistance has worn down. And I think having them in a room he hardly goes in with the door shut is looking pretty good to him right now! :D

PS... In it's former life, the room was a boy's bedroom. The ceiling fan is one of those baseball themed ones, to match the sports balls themed border in the room. :huh: I'm thinking the males will all love it, but the little girlies... maybe not so much, lol. :p

 
Peter,

I wasn't talking about perfect conditions. Is there such a thing? I was just running with the environment that Katnapper said she was setting up. I figured net or screen cages would simplify the situation for her because there would be no micro climates to worry about.

According to the CDC, humidity is not going to cause mold problems as long as you keep the room humidity in the 40 to 60% range. A hot shower that leaves condensation on the surfaces of the bathroom is at 100% humidity.

Anyway,

 
Thank you, Peter, for all of the tips and heads up about the temp. and humidity levels. I never really thought about being concerned about mold! :huh: With so many factors to think about one affecting the other, keeping things simple and not over-controlling seems prudent. I guess I'll just have to do as I think best with the set-up initially, then see how it goes... and adjust as necessary.

I do have a bunch of standardized containers in 3 sizes, that I plan on housing individuals in. And I have some Critter Keepers of varying sizes that I'm planning on using as nursuries when my ooths hatch (I've customized them with organza fabric covering the ventilation slots to keep in melanogasters). So I ought to be able to get an idea of the microclimates of the majority by monitoring just a few. I'm glad you gave me the heads up that the microclimates of the containers might vary significantly from the general room conditions. Lots of helpful information that I really appreciate! :)

Scott, I have considered the net cages too. Almost bought some online, but then figured I'd just go with what I already have for now and see how it goes. I have oodles of these clear plastic, screw-on top storage containers in 3 graduating sizes (they came nesting, 3 to a set... $1.00 for each set at the Dollar Store! I thought they were perfect for my needs - after customizing with screen/organza covered hole in lid - so I bought all they had, and then bought more in another town's Dollar Store too, just to make sure I'd have all I might possibly ever want in the future!)

 
salomonis said:
According to the CDC, humidity is not going to cause mold problems as long as you keep the room humidity in the 40 to 60% range. A hot shower that leaves condensation on the surfaces of the bathroom is at 100% humidity.
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Hi Scott,

So, normal household humidity ranges are 40-60% and anything above that provides breeding grounds for mold.

What then, are the typical humidity measurements in tropical areas of our planet?

And what does Dr. Yager recommend for tropical species, humidity-wise?

 
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I prefer using real plants (orchids, bromeliads and maybe soon nepenthes) in my terrariums, so some plant lighting is required. The lamps vary from 15w to 23w, so the heat they give is not too great. Also, the terrariums are large enough for the temperature to vary from 22 to 28 degrees celcius.

Don't know if that's ideal, but at least the little buggers can choose whatever temperature they like best. I'm still quite new at this (I have 2 phyllocrania paradoxa & 1 creobroter gemmatus), since only started this hobby earlier this year, but just wanted to express my thoughts.

 
Hello there. :)

I'm actually also a plant enthusiast, so live plants just seem narutal. They do not agree with all people, though. :D It's quite fun though, growing some tropical plants along with mantids.

Later this month, I'll most likely start building a larger terrarium; about 60cm x 30cm x 100cm (2' x 1' x 3'4"). Light and heating would be provided by two 18w fluorescent tubes. Top will most likely be the favourite place, but there should be enough foliage at different heights, for mantids to choose a place of their liking. Still thinking about what sort of feeder insects I should use, but houseflies and waxmoths jump to mind as main course.

Hopefully I will be able to succesfully breed my Phyllocrania paradoxa to fill the space up. Buying them is another option, should I not be able to pull it of with my own critters. In the end, I might even end up with another species.

- Tuomo

Oh, and I'm from Finland, if you're wondering about my writing. :p

 

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