Idolomantis Consolidated

[Precarious]

They LOVE the foam carpet liner and I cant get them off of the side walls!!

I even have a lamp on top to attract them to the top.

Why cant I just use it on the ceiling too and forget glueing more sticks?

We like the sticks. The Idolo will not when it comes time to molt. At that thickness they amount to a textured surface rather than something they can wrap around. They are most secure when they use the whole foot as a hook. Sames goes for Violins.

If you use carpet liner for the top just be aware that if, after final molt, their foot goes through the spaces and grips the metal screen all the hooks will be torn from that foot. This applies to any material you use with spaces exposing the screen. And it only matters for that brief moment after final molt while the hooks are still soft. I know this because I have seen this happen with Heterochaeta sp., another large species with similar gripping needs, and it was heartbreaking to watch a perfect molt end with all the hooks being torn from his feet when he stepped off the old skin and onto the screen. They can't grip anything after that. They drop and that's the end of the story.

 

[Psychobunny]

Okay, I did some mods on my 18 X 18'' Exo.

I have the carpet linner on the lid plus some sticks over top of that without overdoing it:

The lamp is one of those curly-Q fluorescent 40W (incan equivalent) and does not get hot,

just slightly warm.

It also accounts for the yellow color in the pics.

Let me know what U think of it.

We do go through a lot of our little friends, dont we!? LOL

My brother thinks I'm ready for the mental hospital!!

 

[Precarious]

Okay, I did some mods on my 18 X 18'' Exo.

I have the carpet linner on the lid plus some sticks over top of that without overdoing it:

The lamp is one of those curly-Q fluorescent 40W (incan equivalent) and does not get hot,

just slightly warm.

It also accounts for the yellow color in the pics.

Let me know what U think of it.

We do go through a lot of our little friends, dont we!? LOL

My brother thinks I'm ready for the mental hospital!!

P.E.R.F.E.C.T.!

Just add some moss to the bottom to break falls and hold humidity. I use wet moss in a shallow dish and fill the rest of the bottom with dry moss. That way the water is contained within the dish. This helps prevent mold growing in the tank. If it does it is only in the dish which is easy to remove and clean.

 

[Psychobunny]

P.E.R.F.E.C.T.!

Just add some moss to the bottom to break falls and hold humidity. I use wet moss in a shallow dish and fill the rest of the bottom with dry moss. That way the water is contained within the dish. This helps prevent mold growing in the tank. If it does it is only in the dish which is easy to remove and clean.

Will do, I have a whole big bag of nice sphagnum moss and a square baking dish.

Question; when you water them for a drink, do you mist directly on them or do you spray the mist over the top?

 

[Bryce08]

Will do, I have a whole big bag of nice sphagnum moss and a square baking dish.

Question; when you water them for a drink, do you mist directly on them or do you spray the mist over the top?

Yeah add moss, you will be 100%

I spray them directly, then spray the moss at the bottom a couple times....that way they get a drink and the cage stays humid, spraying from the top sometimes makes them try to drink it through whatever you have at the top...wire, mesh, liner, etc...

 

[Precarious]

Question; when you water them for a drink, do you mist directly on them or do you spray the mist over the top?

I mist them directly, and/or from above so droplets form on a branches.

RATS!! cant find anything to put the moss in! will put down some paper towels until I can get to the grocery

store tomorrow and get some of those disposible aluminum cooking trays.

I use the plastic containers Chinese food generally comes in.

 

[Precarious]

Everyone that uses foam carpet liners:

Please report how they worked for you and if there were any health unusual issues. My concern with using them is that they may give off fumes.

Theoretically, a fully reacted polyurethane polymer should be chemically inert. But any chemist will tell you that even fully reacted polyurethane produces dust that can cause mechanical irritation to the eyes and lungs in humans. This is mainly a concern for materials that we are in contact with for extended periods, such as foam mattresses. It is also known that some foam insulation materials give off formaldehyde fumes as the materials decay.

It is for these reasons I have not jumped on board. It looks very convenient and effective. My only concern is the composition of the materials used to make it. I worry about unknown effects from being literally surrounded by it in an enclosed space through a mantid lifetime, as well as drinking water from it. I suppose the same could be said for plastics to some extent due to their petrochemical origins and potential release of Bisphenol A (BPA), but this is mainly a concern when heat is applied or BPA is leached into liquids in contact for extended periods.

The non-slip liners I've seen on line are made from 'polyester 4'. Tufts Medical University found that cancer cells grow more rapidly in polyester test tubes than glass tubes. It is believed that this is because polyester emits phytoestrogens, which are potentially dangerous to the endocrine system as synthetic estrogens, i.e. endocrine disrupters, known to cause cancerous tumors, birth defects, and other developmental disorders.

I'm not trying to scare anyone away from it. I'm hoping we can prove this isn't a concern. I know Sporeworld used it extensively last generation but he was dealing with an army of Idolo. Potential effects would be easier to track by those with a smaller population. If you have a small group being raised in an enclosure including a fair amount of this material I'd be interested to know what percentage make it to adult and how many died due to health problems vs. trauma such as falls during molt.

 

[Psychobunny]

Henry,

I was concerned about that too.

When I bought a pack, it did have a "new plastic" smell.

I put it in the washing machine and washed it in warm water, then hung it up outside in the sun and wind to dry.

After dry, I could not detect the slightest odor.

So, I decided to ball some of it up, stuff it into a cup, and put cold water on it.

I let it soak for about an hour and I drank the water!!

No off flavor at all.

Of course, my brand may be different from others, but I suggest doing what I did before U use it.

If, after washing, you still get a off oder, let it hang outside longer or re-wash it.

This is the brand I am using:

http://www.amazon.co...s00_i00_details

If concerned, you can put some in a container with a bunch of crickets and wait a few weeks to monitor any ill effects.

Some plastics can leech BPA, which is partialy soluble in water (very soluble in alcohol) and is know to be toxic.

 

[Bryce08]

Henry,

I was concerned about that too.

When I bought a pack, it did have a "new plastic" smell.

So, I decided to ball some of it up, stuff it into a cup, and put cold water on it.

I let it soak for about an hour and I drank the water!!

Your dedicated!!! HaHa...Ive used it for a while before using in the exo terras, I use it as well in all the deli cups...Henry does make a very valid point though, would be nice if we could counter out any problems with it, so we know its 100%

 

[Precarious]

Henry,

I was concerned about that too.

When I bought a pack, it did have a "new plastic" smell.

I put it in the washing machine and washed it in warm water, then hung it up outside in the sun and wind to dry.

After dry, I could not detect the slightest odor.

So, I decided to ball some of it up, stuff it into a cup, and put cold water on it.

I let it soak for about an hour and I drank the water!!

That's good. Part of the problem is synthetics seldom purge all the chemicals used in their production which are not a bonded part of the material. That's usually the source of the nasty fumes. Rinsing and airing is the smart thing to do. I hope everyone is doing that.

We should still try to keep track of any long term effects, if any, due to breakdown of the material.

I was looking for a coarse woven material formed into a grid. Couldn't find anything aside from burlap, which comes apart once the seams are cut, and the grids people use for knitting, which I haven't tried. Would be much easier to buy carpet liners.

 

[Psychobunny]

Your dedicated!!! HaHa...Ive used it for a while before using in the exo terras, I use it as well in all the deli cups...Henry does make a very valid point though, would be nice if we could counter out any problems with it, so we know its 100%

LOL!! before changing my career path, I was an analytical chemist for a packaged food trade association.

Back then, BPA was a major consummer scare.

I analyzed food products which had been packaged in various containers using different plastics, we also "mimiced" the canning process by using alcohol solutions.

We used a HPLC method for the analysis and found BPA to be below the quantatation limit in all cases. It largly turned out to be media hype, but the consummer still

believes it.

The biggest concern they had was infant formulas and baby bottles made of plastic. The concern was unwarrented, but the media continued to scare the ###### out

of them!!

Besides BPA, there are other compounds in plastics, but they are not water soluble.

So, bottom line is, if water is the only solvent you intend to use, just soak the material in hot water!! that will leech out any residual that may be in it.

It's not a big worry, plastic is everywhere and in nearly everything. Even canned foods have a plastic coating on the tinplate.

 

[Precarious]

LOL!! before changing my career path, I was an analytical chemist for a packaged food trade association.

Back then, BPA was a major consummer scare.

I analyzed food products which had been packaged in various containers using different plastics, we also "mimiced" the canning process by using alcohol solutions.

We used a HPLC method for the analysis and found BPA to be below the quantatation limit in all cases. It largly turned out to be media hype, but the consummer still

believes it.

The biggest concern they had was infant formulas and baby bottles made of plastic. The concern was unwarrented, but the media continued to scare the ###### out

of them!!

Well good to know you have a working knowledge on the subject! I would have to disagree about BPA not being an issue simply because individual products don't contain over the accepted amounts. The problem is when it's coming at you from all angles there is a cumulative effect. In this modern world everyone is carrying BPA in their system at all times. It's in urine, it's in the water. There have been documented cases of just the excreted portions feminizing male fish, etc. I don't want to get too far off the topic of this thread, but BPA is banned in many nations, Canada for instance, and is currently being considered for ban in the US. I see the FDA rejected the ban just in the last 24 hours but I doubt that means it will be legal much longer. Consumers will demand protections the FDA continually fails to provide.

The bottom line is any synthetic estrogen hormone (BPA and pesticides included) work against maintaining a balanced endocrine system and are best avoided if at all possible.

End rant...

 

[angelofdeathzz]

First off that stuff is throw rug anti-skid material so area rugs don't move around as they have no jute backing, it's not carpet liner(backing) like you would find on the back of your carpet if you peeled it back in your living room, the jute backing on carpet is more like thin rope made of mostly if not all "natural" materials then bonded into a mesh using latex, and heat applies it to the back of the carpet roll so later it can be stretched in(installed) using tack strip that holds it in place. If you could find the netting(backing) for the back of actual carpet it would be much healthier, it would be made of a hemp like material, not toxic man made stuff like the "carpet liner".

How do I know, I own a flooring company, lol.

If it's what you choose then more power to ya, but you don't need all the sides coated with anything? A few sticks or vines going from top to bottom is all they need. You don't want them to molt vertically do you? I've had a few smaller instars molt from the sides of my net cages and it cost some of them bent legs, missing legs, and deformity in general. A larger instar would be a hot mess if it molted from the side, and their not all that smart about molting to begin with sometimes. :no:

I will just stick to my natural branches and fake vines/leaves in glass enclosures, did I mention sticks are free and all they use in the wild? like they say "if it isn't broke don't fix it!" my set-ups have worked very well for many generations of Idolo with no mysterious rot in adulthood that I've seen first hand from others that use less natural cages, we're still not sure what caused it though to be honest, but in the end to each his own I guess, good luck to all you carpet anti-skiders out there...

 

[sporeworld]

Good points, all around.

Some notes: I suggest some kind of liner on as many surfaces as possible with Idolos - simply because I experienced more incidents of misformed legs (from trying in vain to grasp the glass with still-forming legs) than from side-molting. Once I had the lining on the tops, I had zero out of hundreds even attempt a side molt. I think the prevention of over-crowding is far more important to their molting success than eliminating side-molt opportunities.

I've NO idea about the health effects of this material. Do we even know if cancer is a concern with mantids? Or Idolos? Or are they apparently immune like sharks are alleged to be?

I love the enclosure you posted - really top notch. For the bottom, you can use moss, or any one of many "litter" or bedding products available at stores, fairly cheaply.

If I ever mention "misting" in my posts, I almost always should have said "drenching". As Phil pointed out in several threads, a few spritzes are just not sufficient do do more than just let them drink. I drench the ###### out of everything in the enclosure - it's more than a day before it's dry again - even in LA.

Concerning heat and the ceiling - yeah - what they said. Much warmer at the ceiling. Lighting can be an issue, since they'll want light above them. To this, you could aim your light at the wall or ceiling, and see if the bounce light will do the trick. Heat from the lights will rise anyway, so win/win.

And bunny - for being such a good sport about all this - send me a PM and I'll send you one of my old Taylor Thermometer / Hydrometers. They're really great and will keep you from guessing if you've got them in the right place.

And, I LOVE to innovate. When it's all figured out, I get bored and move on. I'm still looking for better alternatives to the carpet liners, the substrate, heating, timers, misters, enclosures, and so on. Just less pressure since I'm mantis free at the moment. So, hopefully that confession will keep people from thinking I'm attacking THEIR ideas - I'm just attempting to improve on THE idea. As such, I'm prone to lots of failures, embarrassments and apologies. But I'll get it right eventually...

 

[agent A]

just wondering, will an infrared bulb be ok for these guys? my belph lamp has no room for my idolo cage but under the infrared roach lamp it's a toasy 85 degrees

 

[angelofdeathzz]

I believe I speak for Henry as well as myself when I say we're not attacking the liner Idea, just wondering the outcome of using it? I can see some of the advantages of it's overall shape and pattern plus ease of use seems irresistible for sure, and if you don't put in enough vertical sticks then something on the sides is needed, but all mine molt on the branches never to move from there till the molt is complete.

When in the last part of the molt and just their butt is in the old skin they reach their legs straight up to grab some wood and stay there till dry and hardened, never seeing the bottom to have to try and get back up? The top sticks are just half the idea, many up and down with side branches(like in my pics) are also needed in this method so they can hang upside down till dry and not climb on any sides which may bend legs or mis-form wings.

The last thing I wanted was to offend anyone, so all apologies if I did? There are so many options that can be used, I just prefer the most mother naturally way I can create is all, nothing more or less.

I think I've made my point and won't comment anymore on on things that puzzle me, after all there's more than one way to skin a cat as they say.

So just ignore my partial ignorance and carry on, in truth if I didn't use my natural way for so long I may also jump on the liner Idea. :surrender:

 

[angelofdeathzz]

just wondering, will an infrared bulb be ok for these guys? my belph lamp has no room for my idolo cage but under the infrared roach lamp it's a toasy 85 degrees

I used infrared mid winter when I was not thrilled with night time temps going below 68 with no issues.

 

[guapoalto049]

I think the only problem with the white rug mesh could be if it is heated very high, same as plastics. Personally I use the stuff to cover any metal in the cage, then use a stick roof on top of that.

Without question the best way for an Idolo or any other species to molt is from a slanted surface. I've mentioned this multiple times, and it makes sense when you think about it. The biggest problem once mantids are out of the skin is having a place to grip. The exuvia is old, brittle, and weak. If this is all a mantid has to grip after a molt, it will most likely fall. Hence, large+heavy Idolomantis will fall often on the last molt. Young instars are relatively light for the length of the legs, which is why most of the mismolts at low instars are attributed to humidity/getting stuck.

Nature is never a geometric cube...you rarely see a large flat horizontal surface hovering over the ground with nothing else around it. In essence, this is what a plain net cube is. Give the mantids angles, twigs, bark, etc. just like nature does.

Here is an almost foolproof way to keep any mantids molting well:

1.) Mantids can get stuck. Keep humidity high, especially when young.

2.) Mantids do not do grip slick surfaces well. Give them something rough and easy to grab.

3.) Mantids are large insects. Exuvia is weak and will rarely support large mantids. Give a slanted surface (I use 45 degrees) so when through the molt, they can reach forward, instead of up and over the weak and brittle exuvial bridge

 

[sporeworld]

Yeah - I had considered elevating the front of my enclosure to put them at a slight angle, but just didn't bother. In the VAST majority of cases, I had to personally remove the exuvia, as all 4 legs were still firmly attached. This is the positive quality of the spongy carpet liner. However, if someone wants to further improve their odds, tilting the enclosure may have added benefit. I wonder if, when tilted, they will all face the same way before molting? If not, then the tilting could be worse. Hmmmm.

And, yeah - Angelofdeathzz - its ALL good. As with heat, humidity, decorations, food and enclosure types, we've proved there are some truly harmful approaches, and a very wide array of acceptable ones. So, keep the faith!

 

[Psychobunny]

Good points, all around.

Some notes: I suggest some kind of liner on as many surfaces as possible with Idolos - simply because I experienced more incidents of misformed legs (from trying in vain to grasp the glass with still-forming legs) than from side-molting. Once I had the lining on the tops, I had zero out of hundreds even attempt a side molt. I think the prevention of over-crowding is far more important to their molting success than eliminating side-molt opportunities.

I've NO idea about the health effects of this material. Do we even know if cancer is a concern with mantids? Or Idolos? Or are they apparently immune like sharks are alleged to be?

I love the enclosure you posted - really top notch. For the bottom, you can use moss, or any one of many "litter" or bedding products available at stores, fairly cheaply.

If I ever mention "misting" in my posts, I almost always should have said "drenching". As Phil pointed out in several threads, a few spritzes are just not sufficient do do more than just let them drink. I drench the ###### out of everything in the enclosure - it's more than a day before it's dry again - even in LA.

Concerning heat and the ceiling - yeah - what they said. Much warmer at the ceiling. Lighting can be an issue, since they'll want light above them. To this, you could aim your light at the wall or ceiling, and see if the bounce light will do the trick. Heat from the lights will rise anyway, so win/win.

And bunny - for being such a good sport about all this - send me a PM and I'll send you one of my old Taylor Thermometer / Hydrometers. They're really great and will keep you from guessing if you've got them in the right place.

And, I LOVE to innovate. When it's all figured out, I get bored and move on. I'm still looking for better alternatives to the carpet liners, the substrate, heating, timers, misters, enclosures, and so on. Just less pressure since I'm mantis free at the moment. So, hopefully that confession will keep people from thinking I'm attacking THEIR ideas - I'm just attempting to improve on THE idea. As such, I'm prone to lots of failures, embarrassments and apologies. But I'll get it right eventually...

OOoo, Taylor used to make some nice hydrometers back in the old days, cheap too!!

I only have a few expensive, calibratable ones, but they are not inside the enclosers, they monitor

the room RH.

It would be nice to have something accurate I can stick inside with my mantis

Soooo, I may take you up on your generous offer

I have no pride when it comes to a nice person offering to give me something usefull

P.S. I kind of give all my mantids a "shower" when I spray them too.

In a few hours, it's dry again anyway, and it's the best way to know they got a good drink!

Lots of molting problems come from not drinking enough water, and/or ill-hydrated feeders.