Intelligence Debate > Creation/Evolution poll xD

[AFK]

AFK- If I spent the time to explain where you're logic is in error would that really make a difference? If I explained to a hamburger how it should taste would it make it wamer or have more mustard? I think if you read the gospels that might change your heart.

orin, if you can explain where my logic is faulty, it could make a difference. the ONLY sure-fire way to make a difference though is to PROVE that there is a god. until then, i just simply have no reason to believe in one.p.s. i was a christian for about the first 21 years or so of my life. i was a church leader, taught sunday school, and read the bible.

 

[AFK]

Buy a bible and read it.

as i've just told orin, i already have.

Also on judgement day you will be trembling and you won't have a smart mouth.

why and prove it will happen. i could just as much say that you would tremble on judgment day at the feet of Zeus, but until i prove to you that Zeus exists, there is no reason for you to fear.

 

[AFK]

i don't hold you any grudge too, but i don't think disproving someone is necessarily an insult...unless the recipient chooses to interpret it as such. i think that's what it means by "not taking it so personally." some people just simply aren't capable of a debate without feeling like they are personally attacked, and as i've said before, if one is unfit for debate, then that's fine...just don't pretend you are and dive right in.p.s. a concise and laconic message is considered clinical as opposed to tactful. the former is conducive to and aims for logical resolution. the latter is conducive and aims for emotional resolution (regardless if a logical resolution is reached). both are effective forms of communication...at the right place and time.

Do you think you can argue the love of Jesus into me? When I stand before him on the Last Day I'll simpy explain to him that he doesn't really exist.

What do you truly think will happen on the last day? Nothing?

i don't know what will happen for sure on "the last day" (assuming you're referring to death). most likely, nothing.

p.s. if you're setting up pascal's wager, it's not going to work.

 

[Asa]

What do you think will happen when we all die? Reincarnation? Just a black screen?

 

[robo mantis]

True christians will be in heaven with God you should know that. It says that in the bible.

 

[AFK]

What do you think will happen when we all die? Reincarnation? Just a black screen?

i thought i've already answered this question? again, i don't think anything happens. you just cease to exist.

 

[AFK]

True christians will be in heaven with God you should know that. It says that in the bible.

yes, but that is circular reason. you assume that christians go to heaven because the bible is true. but this line of reasoning is only true as long as the assumption (that the bible is true) is true. so this begs the question, "how do you know the bible is true?"can you answer this question? without resorting to circular reasoning of course.

 

[Asa]

True christians will be in heaven with God you should know that. It says that in the bible.

I was asking AFK .

Cease to exist huh? I'd rather believe that a loving caring God is here to rescue me. What would be your explanation of all the miracles Saints have done?

 

[Orin]

p.s. i was a christian for about the first 21 years or so of my life. i was a church leader, taught sunday school, and read the bible.

What happened? Did you ever have a strong prayer life?

You are familiar with the Tokyo sarin gas attack. They did it because they were bored. It's hard to pretend a logical arguement when you think muslims running planes into a building has to do with Christianity. Universalism isn't Christianity.

 

[AFK]

True christians will be in heaven with God you should know that. It says that in the bible.

Cease to exist huh? I'd rather believe that a loving caring God is here to rescue me.

i would like to believe that too, but i don't believe in things SIMPLY because they are more appealing. i believe in things because there is good reason (i.e. evidence) to do so.

according to your line of reasoning, i should believe that i'm a god myself and that i have neo-from-the-matrix-like powers because i'd rather believe in that than in believing that i'm a mortal.

What would be your explanation of all the miracles Saints have done?

i don't see any reason to believe that any of the miracles actually happened.

 

[robo mantis]

AFK you are looking at things from a worldly point of veiw that since we are not perfect no one can be.

 

[AFK]

p.s. i was a christian for about the first 21 years or so of my life. i was a church leader, taught sunday school, and read the bible.

What happened? Did you ever have a strong prayer life?

i don't think one can blame me falling away from my faith to a "not strong enough" prayer life without resorting to circular logic. i also think my reasons for falling away is irrelevant to whether god exists. sounds like you might have a line a reasoning i'm not seeing, so i'd like to hear more about it if this is the case. tangentially though, i don't think prayer has any effect in the real world. i think it's a placebo effect, and yes, "miracles" do happen, but not because of divine intervention, but simply because it's statistically bound to happen 100%. in other words, it's a numbers game - given enough tries, XYZ will happen. when it finally happens, it appears to be miraculous/coincidental ONLY when you forget the countless other prayers that were NOT answered. in yet other words, prayer is a numbers game where it is statistics dictate that at least some prayers will be answered; and the frequency in which these prayers are answered are directly related to how likely they are to occur by chance.

You are familiar with the Tokyo sarin gas attack. They did it because they were bored. It's hard to pretend a logical arguement when you think muslims running planes into a building has to do with Christianity. Universalism isn't Christianity.

i'm not familiar with the tokyo sarin gas attack. from what i understand, it was done by a religious cult. whether it was done out of boredom or religious reason seems irrelevant to me. and yes, universalism isn't christianity. i was only making a statement about religion in general since i don't know everyone's religions here. it's cool if we only want to focus just on christianity though, and if so, i would point to the christian crusade wars.

 

[AFK]

AFK you are looking at things from a worldly point of veiw that since we are not perfect no one can be.

i am not understanding your point here. elaborate?

 

[Orin]

i don't think one can blame me falling away from my faith to a "not strong enough" prayer life without resorting to circular logic. .

I was asking if the seeds fell on rocky ground where there was little soil and the sun burned up the plants because the roots were shallow. I didn't say your belief or disbelief would affect the existence of God but you might not know I existed if you never talked to me.

 

[robo mantis]

Since you can't see the circle logic, you resort to trying to get technical. Also pray that God strengthens your faith. It works every christian does it and it works out.

 

[AFK]

i don't think one can blame me falling away from my faith to a "not strong enough" prayer life without resorting to circular logic. .

I was asking if the seeds fell on rocky ground where there was little soil and the sun burned up the plants because the roots were shallow. I didn't say your belief or disbelief would affect the existence of God but you might not know I existed if you never talked to me.

okay, i think i may finally understand what you're getting at lol. see, this is why i think tact can sometimes get in the way of communication when straight, cold facts are more important, e.g. in a non-social debate setting.if i understand you correctly (so correct me if i'm wrong), you're basically questioning whether i was truly a christian. if so, i still fail to see the relevance of this regarding the existance of god and/or creationism.

 

[AFK]

Since you can't see the circle logic, ...

circular logic is not a type of logic. it's a type of logical fallacy.

...you resort to trying to get technical.

"getting technical" with logic isn't optional. it's THE and ONLY proper way to debate.

Also pray that God strengthens your faith. It works every christian does it and it works out.

i don't see a reason to believe that prayer works.

 

[robo mantis]

When you see a building, how do you know there was a builder? If you see a painting, do you doubt there was a painter if he isn't prsent? If a building requires a builder or a painter for a painting, then creation requires a creator. Want to hear a theory of where the soda can came from? Billions of years ago, a bubbly brown liquid formed and sat on a rock. Then over billions of years, liquid metal formed around the object and completed itself with a pull tab. Then colored pigment formed the words 12 fl. oz. Does this sound ridiculous ? Then consider the "Atheist's Nightmare", the banana. It has three grooves on one side and two on the other that fit the human hand, better than a soda can. It has an outer casing that tell you the expiration date like a can, green too early, yellow just right, brown too late. It also has a pull tab and is biodegradable. It also fit the human mouth exactly. If you would like to truly challenge your doubts then I suggest you go to www.wayofthemaster.com

 

[Orin]

if i understand you correctly, you're basically questioning whether i was truly a christian. if so, i still fail to see the relevance of this regarding the existance of god and/or creationism.

'I may have all knowledge and understand all secrets but if I have no love I am nothing.'

You said that you were a Christian and I was wondering if you were or if you just happened to grow up in a Christian family. I don't believe the creation of the universe hinges on your acceptance of God, I'm asking out of concern.

What is your ultimate logical falling back point? At some point you have to believe in an infinite universe or something. Believing in the big bang isn't an ultimate falling back point since there had to be some (zero and negative numbers do exist) reason for it. Besides, the big bang follows the first few verses of genesis whereas an always present universe would not.

 

[AFK]

When you see a building, how do you know there was a builder? If you see a painting, do you doubt there was a painter if he isn't prsent? If a building requires a builder or a painter for a painting, then creation requires a creator.

this commits 2 logical fallacies:

1. tautology

2. begging the question

these incorrectly used tautologies begs the question, "does this line of reasoning apply to everything?" the answer is, "no."

does a building require a builder? yes.

does a painter require a painter? yes.

does a rock require a rocker? no.

does a turntable require a turntabler/turntablist? no.

does a cloud require a clouder? no.

does water require a waterer? no.

so if the begged question (does this line of reasoning apply to everything?) is false, then what does this line of reasoning apply to? things that we all agree are DESIGNED.

thus, to say that creation requires a creator is ASSUMING that creation is designed. once again, this falls back to the original challenge - prove to me that there is an intelligent designer (creationism) without resorting to circular logic (or begging the question).

Want to hear a theory of where the soda can came from? Billions of years ago, a bubbly brown liquid formed and sat on a rock. Then over billions of years, liquid metal formed around the object and completed itself with a pull tab. Then colored pigment formed the words 12 fl. oz. Does this sound ridiculous? Then consider the "Atheist's Nightmare", the banana. It has three grooves on one side and two on the other that fit the human hand, better than a soda can. It has an outer casing that tell you the expiration date like a can, green too early, yellow just right, brown too late. It also has a pull tab and is biodegradable. It also fit the human mouth exactly.

while this is not a tautology, this once again begs a question(s). one question it begs is, "what about all the other fruits that aren't nearly as accommodating to humans?" another two logical fallacies this commits is stacking the deck and correlation does not imply causation. just because a banana HAPPENS to be so accommodating and convenient for humans does not necessarily mean it was intelligently designed. in fact, out of the millions of different types of fruit out there, it would be unusual if there wasn't at least ONE fruit that just HAPPENS to be as accommodating as the banana. statistics dictates that out of the millions of different types of fruits, at least one will be as convenient. this is a type of intellectual dishonesty and/or laziness where you give only the evidence that supports your premise, while disregarding or withholding contrary evidence. and believe me, i'm well aware that christian apologetics stack the deck ALL THE TIME. that was the only way i could have taught my sunday school class on apologetics while i was a christian after all - i willingly ignored evidence to the contrary.

If you would like to truly challenge your doubts then I suggest you go to www.wayofthemaster.com

haha, no thanks. actually, i suggest that you find better apologetics. Way Of The Master was brutally raped by the Rational Response Squadwithin the first 5 minutes of this nationally televised christianity vs. atheism debate on ABC:

part 1 of 2

part 2 of 2

for the sake of christians, they should have picked a better team than way of the master. of course, that wasn't possible because ABC picked the teams (from what i understand).

way of the master teaches you how to effectively employ propaganda tactics, NOT logic.