Saying goodbye

Mantidforum

Help Support Mantidforum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
They do have souls. Not quite like human souls, but more of a group soul - a species soul. Individuation, to use the esoteric term, is a processes unique to humans. But that doesn't make mantid lives any less meaningful. You can tell who is empathetic and/or spiritual here by their responses. Some humans choose to be soulless and see other animals merely for their inherent material value. I don't relate to them very well.

I sometimes bury mine in the garden or sometimes just lay them in a flowerbed. I think both are respectful enough and allow their bodies to be recycled.
I'm not really sure what a soul is, or what someone without one would be like. I don't believe that there is a portion of us that survives physical death.

That being said, I view all life as connected. Not in some esoteric, metaphysical way, but in the since that we all share the same ancestors. To me, it is the ultimate beauty that a mantis and I share many of the same ancestors. For this reason I respect all life.

 
I bury mine all outside my window under the larger fruit tree I have growing. Often I use a bit of thread and large leaves to make a coffin. I like that it feels very natural and is biodegradable. Other times I have used pretty origami paper for the coffins. Sometimes however when I am still not ready to completely let go I will use little cardboard material type boxes that will have a touch more lasting power. Personally I look forward to being surrounded by my swarm when I cross over to the other side.

 
When I lose one, I recycle its body somehow...like for my adult male h membran, I tossed his dead lifeless body to a mocking bird who went and fed her chicks with him (he was put in freezer before this, and she (mocking bird) knows me, I once in awhile feed her a nice big ol roach or dying mantis...other than that, in the earth and then they go on to serve another purpose (in addition with filling me life with joy)....having said this, yesterday, I walked on the porch to see one of my h majusculas (L4 male) waving his raptorials (like a boxer mantis) and waving his flattened abdomen to try and scare an L5 girl almost twice his size...so I talked to him and said "honestly buddy, you would lose in that match, try the other L4 male, he is a fairer competition....(this actually happened) he stopped his threat dance, looked over at me, and then looked back at the female, and then just sat their and chilled. I then proceeded to thInk how cute he was .sorry for being all little off topic, but I believe in some sort of connection/energy that we share with these awe inspiring creatures...it is sometimes very hard to say goodbye...

 
I'm not really sure what a soul is, or what someone without one would be like. I don't believe that there is a portion of us that survives physical death.
Your soul is the vehicle of your consciousness. You believe your body serves that purpose because you've never experienced consciousness outside of the limits of your body. The true vehicle is soul which exists with or without body. Science claims the brain creates consciousness. I say the brain is a receiver that allows consciousness to connect with a body. Mind and thought are beyond the measure of science. They can only measure brain activity which is not thought, but the physical receiver of thought.

Someone without a soul is incapable of empathic connection to other forms of life.

Psychopathy (/sˈkɒpəθi/ from the Ancient Greek ψυχή "psyche", -soul, mind and πάθος, "pathos" -suffering, disease, condition) is a personality disorder that has been variously described as characterized by shallow emotions (in particular reduced fear), stress tolerance, lacking empathy, coldheartedness, lacking guilt, egocentricity, superficial charm, manipulativeness, irresponsibility, impulsivity and antisocial behaviors such as parasitic lifestyle and criminality.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Psychopathy

That being said, I view all life as connected. Not in some esoteric, metaphysical way, but in the since that we all share the same ancestors. To me, it is the ultimate beauty that a mantis and I share many of the same ancestors. For this reason I respect all life.
If there is no metaphysical connection then the material/genetic connections are meaningless. The past holds no value beyond informational without a metaphysical connection. Emotional/sentimental value is by definition metaphysical.

metaphysical

Definition: not physical; without physical presence

Synonyms: abstract, abstruse, bodiless, deep, difficult, discarnate, esoteric, eternal, fundamental, high-flown, ideal, immaterial, impalpable, incorporeal, insubstantial, intangible, intellectual, jesuitic, mystical, nonmaterial, nonphysical, numinous, oversubtle, philosophical, preternatural, profound, recondite, spiritual, superhuman, superior, supermundane, supernatural, suprahuman, supramundane, supranatural, theoretical, transcendental, unearthly, unfleshly, universal, unphysical, unreal, unsubstantial

Antonyms: concrete, material, objective, physical, real, solid, substantial

 
I bury all my mantids at the base of my plum tree. Its been mantis fueled for a few years now.I always like the idea of contributing to other things after you can not provide anything else. However, i suppose eating the fruits produced by their dead bodies is rather morbid.....

 
I'm on a cell phone, so quoting the individual parts would take a very long time and probably still be inaccurate. We're probably not going to agree here, but I find this conversation interesting, so I'll continue.

If the brain does not create thought, why do certain people have very specific cognitive limitations? Certain people cannot recognize faces. Other people have an impaired long term memory. In certain cases we know which part of the brain is malfunctioning to cause these deficits, and even more extraordinarily can surgically modify the brain to cause these problems in individuals who otherwise wouldn't have them.

Do you accept the theory of Evolution? If so, were there humans who did not have this individualized soul? If so, did their parents have this? Why not? The difference between the generations is so small that such a small change that trying to draw the line should be impossible.

In my scientific view of the universe, my relationship, in terms of past ancestors and genetic material, with other animals is meaningless in the sort of ultimate sense to which you allude. It just allows me to realize that a part of myself is shared with other animals. It makes it more difficult to, say, classify human life as intrinsically more valuable that a chimpanzee's life. I say this because if one of the intermediates that used to exist were found in a forest, none but the most cold of us would be able to say that the intermediate wasn't as valuable as themselves. Then what about the chimpanzee?

I believe that emotions could not exist without sophisticated minds, and because of that, they are physical.

 
...

I believe that emotions could not exist without sophisticated minds, and because of that, they are physical.
As I stated, the brain is the receiver of consciousness. It's the interface between the physical sensory organs and consciousness. You are talking about an issue with the hardware which impairs the flow of information to and from consciousness. The problem IS a physical problem. It does nothing, however, to prove the brain is the prime and lone vehicle of consciousness.

I'm not going to get into evolution because it would be too much work just to state my perspective on it, and your question requires I accept the mainstream interpretation which I do not. What's more it is much too dependent upon speculation about what cannot be proven one way or another.

But as far as individualized vs species souls you need only go back as far as the indigenous tribal cultures which anthropologists and psychologists, such as Heinz Werner, found lacking a sense of separateness from family/community, objects and nature. It could be suggested spiritual individualization bares a direct link to development of Ego. Early twentieth-century anthropologist Lucien Levy-Bruhl stated that the essential characteristic of native peoples was their less "sharpened" sense of individuality. He noted their sense of identity was bound up with their community and they spoke as "I" when describing the group. You can see a distinct trend during the last millennium away from groups and toward individual states of being. It could also be suggested the Abrahamic religions mark the point at which Ego was realized into the human experience. They represented a break from nature, including shame of one's own body and sexuality.

Your value judgments are based on emotional value and emotion is not physical but metaphysical. That's the main premise I was trying to get across. Your presumption that emotions are the product of sophisticated minds is only a presumption and with no scientific basis. I'm not saying a scientist wouldn't agree with you. They have a vested interest in everything being reducible to physical causes since science can only observe physical interactions. I'm just saying there is no definitive evidence, which would be important when arguing from a scientific perspective.

You feel emotions and your endocrine system responds by releasing the chemicals that create the physical effects associated with that emotion. You suggest the brain calculates the emotional response making is physical yet in many cases emotions are very detrimental to survival and or rational behavior. Examples: Many people break down when faced with emergencies or risk their own safety (and that of their DNA) in order to save the lives of others. In that case do you think the brain works against itself or that perhaps emotions are not merely a mechanistic response to input data calculated by sophisticated minds? Regardless of our conclusions it could not be realistically stated that emotions are physical rather than metaphysical. Therefore, against your better judgment, you do feel a metaphysical connection to all life, and that's a beautiful thing.

 
As I stated, the brain is the receiver of consciousness. It's the interface between the physical sensory organs and consciousness. You are talking about an issue with the hardware which impairs the flow of information to and from consciousness. The problem IS a physical problem. It does nothing, however, to prove the brain is the prime and lone vehicle of consciousness

Information comes from conscious individuals. To say that consciousness itself is created independently from the brain requires a greater explanation than the human brain itself. Evolution presents a simple, explanable origin of the brain and potential organs more complex from the first cell. The origin of consciousness would need a similarly simple explanation or you would have created an infinite regression of complexity (the creator of consciousness must be more complex than consciousness...)

I'm not going to get into evolution because it would be too much work just to state my perspective on it, and your question requires I accept the mainstream interpretation which I do not. What's more it is much too dependent upon speculation about what cannot be proven one way or another.

Would be interested in hearing your thoughts(I'm in college studying Evolutionary Biology, so a nice discussion would be enjoyable. Message me if you want.

But as far as individualized vs species souls you need only go back as far as the indigenous tribal cultures which anthropologists and psychologists, such as Heinz Werner, found lacking a sense of separateness from family/community, objects and nature. It could be suggested spiritual individualization bares a direct link to development of Ego. Early twentieth-century anthropologist Lucien Levy-Bruhl stated that the essential characteristic of native peoples was their less "sharpened" sense of individuality. He noted their sense of identity was bound up with their community and they spoke as "I" when describing the group. You can see a distinct trend during the last millennium away from groups and toward individual states of being. It could also be suggested the Abrahamic religions mark the point at which Ego was realized into the human experience. They represented a break from nature, including shame of one's own body and sexuality.

I haven't heard of this, but it sounds really fascinating, I'll check it out when I get time. Thanks! :D

Your value judgments are based on emotional value and emotion is not physical but metaphysical. That's the main premise I was trying to get across. Your presumption that emotions are the product of sophisticated minds is only a presumption and with no scientific basis. I'm not saying a scientist wouldn't agree with you. They have a vested interest in everything being reducible to physical causes since science can only observe physical interactions. I'm just saying there is no definitive evidence, which would be important when arguing from a scientific perspective

Just because there isn't evidence for or against something doesn't make all opposing explanations have equal merit. We have an explanation for the hardware of the human brain and can (and will be able to do so better in the future) show the physical properties of emotions in the brain. positing a new explanation for emotion and thought just because we can't disprove it seems unnecessary, in the same way that me saying "Invisible Leprechauns are the true source of consciousness in humans" would be unnecessary.

You feel emotions and your endocrine system responds by releasing the chemicals that create the physical effects associated with that emotion. You suggest the brain calculates the emotional response making is physical yet in many cases emotions are very detrimental to survival and or rational behavior. Examples: Many people break down when faced with emergencies or risk their own safety (and that of their DNA) in order to save the lives of others. In that case do you think the brain works against itself or that perhaps emotions are not merely a mechanistic response to input data calculated by sophisticated minds? Regardless of our conclusions it could not be realistically stated that emotions are physical rather than metaphysical. Therefore, against your better judgment, you do feel a metaphysical connection to all life, and that's a beautiful thing.I would say that "feeling" emotion is the response of the endocrine system. If there were a way to inject the right chemicals into a person and duplicate the feeling of a particular emotion, would that disprove your assumption that emotions are from a source outside of our physiology? And if not, what could disprove your assumption?
Back on the computer, responses in bold.

 
the brain has filters that will block sense of unreality. What we see is transfered to the brains transmitters producing the real life affect. Without these filters we would not know existance from reality. Psilocybin will remove these filters producing a new life experience.

 
While I don't name most of my frogs, I certainly don't "flush them or throw them in the trash." I don't believe in "souls" but I do believe that the deceased have an energy that should be recycled into the Earth. I bury all of my deceased animals in my compost bin, so that their energy is not wasted.

jrh3 is obviously trolling you.
Im not trolling new guy just speaking my mind on what i do with the dead mantids. While i enjoy mantids, i dont build emotions for them as they CANT return emotions. Its not programmed in the brain of a mantis to show affection or emotions.

 
I tend to avoid getting attached to an insect with such a short lifespan. I might be upset for a short time if a mantis dies, especially if it died before it should. I don't believe anything has a "soul", including people. Dead mantids in good condition are kept in order to be preserved in my collection. Those that are not are put outside to be recycled back into the cycle.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Im not trolling new guy just speaking my mind on what i do with the dead mantids. While i enjoy mantids, i dont build emotions for them as they CANT return emotions. Its not programmed in the brain of a mantis to show affection or emotions.
though they may not have them physically, some people tend to get attached to them. Be sensitive to those of us who are

 
though they may not have them physically, some people tend to get attached to them. Be sensitive to those of us who are
Sorry i forgot most of the sympathetic ones are still children as yourself. Sorry kids.

 
Sorry i forgot most of the sympathetic ones are still children as yourself. Sorry kids.
Yes I hope I am a kid. Life is not worth living at times without being a kid no

matter how old you are.

I found the cutest boxes for my mantids to be kept in. I will also carry this

childishness further by having one for the males who died in the line of duty :)

I will work on them in the morning and try to share some pics.

 
Yes I hope I am a kid. Life is not worth living at times without being a kid no

matter how old you are.

I found the cutest boxes for my mantids to be kept in. I will also carry this

childishness further by having one for the males who died in the line of duty :)

I will work on them in the morning and try to share some pics.
:wheelchair: :tooth: WEEEEEEEEEEEE
 
I do not feel any emotional connection for them and to be honest if people do they should probably consider that keeping them in captivity is in fact a very unnatural thing to push on them in the first place and it deprives them in one way or another as most fail to provide peak conditions for them. I also keep way to many to be able to follow one or a few individuals so I guess I look at them as a captive managment project and hobby, what dies and is preserved well I give away to collectors but with my knowledge of pathogens and transfer of them from one eco system to another and the risks I do not bury them outside or toss them on a compost bed I freeze them and we toss them on the fire whenever we are out burning in the yard.

 
Top