What do you say?

[Fisherman_Brazil]

Mantis religiosa (European mantis) found here in Taiwan do not require over the winter (diapause). Are they still the same species (with the ones found in other continents)?

Photo shown is the specimem found here in Taiwan.

 

[sidewinder]

Everything I have read says Mantis religiosa needs a period of colder temperatures to break diapause. Are you sure you have M. religiosa in Taiwan?

Scott

 

[kamakiri]

Do they have the 'eye' spot on the inside of the front legs?

 

[Rick]

If they are those then they do need one. If no eyespots in armpits it is something else.

 

[Birdfly]

Maybe its a sub species and therefore slightly different in its requirements

 

[Hypoponera]

I had questions about this awhile ago when Fisherman_Brazil first told me about M.religiosa in Taiwan. I sent an email about it to Dr. Yager and got this in response:

"Because mantises are primarily tropical in distribution, the issue of diapause doesn't come up often. Even M. religiosa, which needs diapause over some of its range, does not in others (southern Europe, Africa)."

So there are some populations of M. religiosa that do not require a diapause. Quite possible that a "southern" poulation has set up in Taiwan. So yes, it is quite possible for M. religiosa to survive and breed in Taiwan.

 

[Fisherman_Brazil]

I still keep a dozen of nymphs from next generation of the wild-collected specimem that is the pictures you have seen. Hope I can raise them to another generation and send some ooth outside of the country for you gentlemen to verify.

 

[sidewinder]

Hypoponera,

That is quite fascinating information. I knew that Tenodera sinensis did not require diapause but never heard that about any population of Mantis religiosa that did not.

I wonder how a mantid taxonomist would deal with this since some populations of M. religiosa do require a period of colder temperatures to break diapause. The implication to me is that we have two very closely related mantids but at the very least they are different subspecies.

Scott

 

[Borya]

Rick, there may be M.rel without eyespots. Only black spots without white circles.

About two years ago I posted about M.rel ooth hatched 2 months after being layed, with no cold period. There were about 200 hatchlings (ooth was huge). It was brought from Crimea, Ukraine, where mantids have winter diapause.

Maybe winter diapause is not as necessary as it seems?

 

[kamakiri]

[SIZE=24pt]Do they have the EYE SPOT?[/SIZE]

 

[Hypoponera]

Salomonis,

A taxonomist shouldn't have any problems. This is simply an adaptation to environment. M. religiosa is native to a huge area with multiple climates. The population found in Africa looks identical to those found in central Europe. Now, over a huge span of time, it is possible that the 2 populations could evolve into 2 different species. But they are currently the same species. A question I would ask is if you cross members of both populations, will the ooth require a diapause? Is it possible for say half the eggs to hatch without a diapause while the others require a diapause?

 

[MantidLord]

Well, maybe they could end up having post-annum hatching, where they can hatch almost whenever? I was shocked when my I. oratorias hatched in the fall with no cold dispause at all. In fact, they hatched 2 weeks after being layed. Joosa told me that they need cold dispause to hatch and to have high hatch rates, but they seemed to not be the case here. I do live in a different area than he does, so maybe climate can change the need for dispause.

 

[Hypoponera]

Fisherman_brazil,

That sounds good to me. I have not had good results with M. religiosa. So anything that might help improve chances of success would be great!

 

[Fisherman_Brazil]

 

[Hypoponera]

MantidLord,

I also hatched out one of those ooths from Joosa. Mine spent 3 months in the fridge. What I couldn't believe was that it took almost 2 months for the ooth to fully empty out. I got loads of stragglers. Maybe one nymph a week after the initial burst out. I don't think I. oritoria needs a diapause though. I will try to breed these and place a couple ooths in the fridge and a couple in incubation. With luck, I will find out for sure.

Joosa is trying to duplicate the environment that is in his area. Since the species does well there, that seems logical to me. The species does well in Tucson as well though. Since it isn't very cold there, I see no reason the species can not survive just fine without a freeze or cold period.

 

[Hypoponera]

Great photos Luke! I believe those are eye spots. Seems to me that you have M. religiosa my friend. By the way, how many other species have eye spots like that?

 

[Fisherman_Brazil]

Well, maybe they could end up having post-annum hatching, where they can hatch almost whenever? I was shocked when my I. oratorias hatched in the fall with no cold dispause at all. In fact, they hatched 2 weeks after being layed. Joosa told me that they need cold dispause to hatch and to have high hatch rates, but they seemed to not be the case here. I do live in a different area than he does, so maybe climate can change the need for dispause.

The hatch had been great, but I decided to keep only a dozen!

 

[kamakiri]

Fisherman, Thanks for the pics...I just didn't want to discuss further without a positive ID.

But that said, I have wondered if the diapause requirements are more of a "delta T" requirement or a temp range requirement. I used to breed fancy goldfish and and average temp drop of about 10 deg F followed by an increase in temp would trigger spawning. The absolute temps didn't matter as much. I have wondered if the same is true of mantises.

I have 6 M. religiosa ooths so far this season and was planning to try to hatch one or two without the diapause indoors.

 

[MantidLord]

MantidLord,I also hatched out one of those ooths from Joosa. Mine spent 3 months in the fridge. What I couldn't believe was that it took almost 2 months for the ooth to fully empty out. I got loads of stragglers. Maybe one nymph a week after the initial burst out. I don't think I. oritoria needs a diapause though. I will try to breed these and place a couple ooths in the fridge and a couple in incubation. With luck, I will find out for sure.

Joosa is trying to duplicate the environment that is in his area. Since the species does well there, that seems logical to me. The species does well in Tucson as well though. Since it isn't very cold there, I see no reason the species can not survive just fine without a freeze or cold period.

That's what I was expecting, I heared that the species hatches out in waves. But mine completely burst out simultaneously. I was also lucky enough to see a wild ooth hatch as well, and it had about 30+ nymphs surrounding the ooth. All of mine stopped hatching (I suppose because of the colder weather), so hopefully they'll resume hatching once winter is over.

The species thrives well here (Las Vegas) as well. Though the winter months do get pretty cold here. I put three ooths in the fridge, but those are being donated. Last year I put two ooths from a mated female in the fridge, and they never hatched. Though I doubt it had anything to do with it being put in the fridge. Only time will tell. For now, I'm just trying to get the nymphs that did hatch back on track with the wild mantids. Hopefully I can breed them before January.