Has anyone had trouble inbreeding Phyllocrania paradoxa?

[Mantisman.]

Well, that's the question, because I couldn't pass the second generation I don't know if it was because of inbreeding or just bad luck. Anyone has had many inbred generations of ghost mantis?

 

[MandellaMandy123]

Do you know that they were inbred? I don't think it's species specific, but inbreeding is never good. Why didn't your second generation survive? What happened?

 

[Mantisman.]

The first ones I bought were brothers, they mated and I got a 1st generation, then, that ones mated and I got plenty of ooths, many many ooths but none hatched! and I lost the species, and I think inbreeding affects in a different way depending on species, I've seen some get trouble after a few generations while others do not, I've kept some and seen some being inbred virtually indefinitely.

 

[patrickfraser]

LOL, how do you mate brothers?

Maybe that's the problem.

 

[SilentDeviL]

LOL, how do you mate brothers?

Maybe that's the problem.

lol .... kills me .. rofl

 

[fleurdejoo]

Once again...I heart Patrickfraser!

 

[ismart]

I have had good results in the past imbreeding ghosts. If your that worried you could always try obtaining new blood.

 

[Ranitomeya]

Inbreeding does not have negative effects in a population that does not have deleterious recessive alleles. In fact, there are some populations of humans that do not experience inbreeding depression despite being closely related to one another. The way inbreeding works is that it increases homozygosity in the loci for all genes, which essentially means that if you have genes with a single copy of a deleterious allele, you will end up with offspring that have two copies of those genes and that will decrease their fitness. Inbreeding reveals recessive genetic diseases that cause a decrease in population fitness, which we call inbreeding depression. Individuals who are homozygous with the recessive genetic disease will either produce few or no offspring, and eventually continued inbreeding will either cause the population to die out as a result of all individuals having the disease, or the allele itself will be weeded out from the population as individuals will eventually be homozygous for all genes and any individuals carrying the deleterious recessive alleles would have the disease and produce few or no offspring. If the recessive deleterious allele is removed from the population, there is no longer any inbreeding depression.

If you have a population of organisms that do not show inbreeding depression, you do not want to introduce new genes into this population from another population. You would potentially introduce a deleterious recessive allele that will slowly proliferate in an inbreeding population and inbreeding depression will occur and increase over time until the population either loses the allele or dies out. Some mantids do show inbreeding depression, and the introduction of new genes usually reverses the affects, but you should remember that you're only preventing inbreeding depression and that it isn't a long-term solution as gene flow can eventually cause homozygosity in all populations--especially if each population is limited in individuals like in captive populations. Perhaps certain mantid species in captivity originated from a few lucky individuals that did not carry many, if any deleterious recessive alleles and over time inbreeding in captivity weeded out the few recessive genetic diseases they carried. Maybe Phyllocrania paradoxa is one of those freakishly lucky species.

 

[gripen]

Inbreeding does not have negative effects in a population that does not have deleterious recessive alleles. In fact, there are some populations of humans that do not experience inbreeding depression despite being closely related to one another. The way inbreeding works is that it increases homozygosity in the loci for all genes, which essentially means that if you have genes with a single copy of a deleterious allele, you will end up with offspring that have two copies of those genes and that will decrease their fitness. Inbreeding reveals recessive genetic diseases that cause a decrease in population fitness, which we call inbreeding depression. Individuals who are homozygous with the recessive genetic disease will either produce few or no offspring, and eventually continued inbreeding will either cause the population to die out as a result of all individuals having the disease, or the allele itself will be weeded out from the population as individuals will eventually be homozygous for all genes and any individuals carrying the deleterious recessive alleles would have the disease and produce few or no offspring. If the recessive deleterious allele is removed from the population, there is no longer any inbreeding depression.

If you have a population of organisms that do not show inbreeding depression, you do not want to introduce new genes into this population from another population. You would potentially introduce a deleterious recessive allele that will slowly proliferate in an inbreeding population and inbreeding depression will occur and increase over time until the population either loses the allele or dies out. Some mantids do show inbreeding depression, and the introduction of new genes usually reverses the affects, but you should remember that you're only preventing inbreeding depression and that it isn't a long-term solution as gene flow can eventually cause homozygosity in all populations--especially if each population is limited in individuals like in captive populations. Perhaps certain mantid species in captivity originated from a few lucky individuals that did not carry many, if any deleterious recessive alleles and over time inbreeding in captivity weeded out the few recessive genetic diseases they carried. Maybe Phyllocrania paradoxa is one of those freakishly lucky species.

Yes exactly! Could not have said it better myself.

 

[hopefoot]

You just made my head explode. Splat. All over the place.

 

[happy1892]

Inbreeding does not have negative effects in a population that does not have deleterious recessive alleles. In fact, there are some populations of humans that do not experience inbreeding depression despite being closely related to one another. The way inbreeding works is that it increases homozygosity in the loci for all genes, which essentially means that if you have genes with a single copy of a deleterious allele, you will end up with offspring that have two copies of those genes and that will decrease their fitness. Inbreeding reveals recessive genetic diseases that cause a decrease in population fitness, which we call inbreeding depression. Individuals who are homozygous with the recessive genetic disease will either produce few or no offspring, and eventually continued inbreeding will either cause the population to die out as a result of all individuals having the disease, or the allele itself will be weeded out from the population as individuals will eventually be homozygous for all genes and any individuals carrying the deleterious recessive alleles would have the disease and produce few or no offspring. If the recessive deleterious allele is removed from the population, there is no longer any inbreeding depression.

If you have a population of organisms that do not show inbreeding depression, you do not want to introduce new genes into this population from another population. You would potentially introduce a deleterious recessive allele that will slowly proliferate in an inbreeding population and inbreeding depression will occur and increase over time until the population either loses the allele or dies out. Some mantids do show inbreeding depression, and the introduction of new genes usually reverses the affects, but you should remember that you're only preventing inbreeding depression and that it isn't a long-term solution as gene flow can eventually cause homozygosity in all populations--especially if each population is limited in individuals like in captive populations. Perhaps certain mantid species in captivity originated from a few lucky individuals that did not carry many, if any deleterious recessive alleles and over time inbreeding in captivity weeded out the few recessive genetic diseases they carried. Maybe Phyllocrania paradoxa is one of those freakishly lucky species.

Oh my gosh! I got it all wrong.

 

[Mime454]

Inbreeding does not have negative effects in a population that does not have deleterious recessive alleles. In fact, there are some populations of humans that do not experience inbreeding depression despite being closely related to one another. The way inbreeding works is that it increases homozygosity in the loci for all genes, which essentially means that if you have genes with a single copy of a deleterious allele, you will end up with offspring that have two copies of those genes and that will decrease their fitness. Inbreeding reveals recessive genetic diseases that cause a decrease in population fitness, which we call inbreeding depression. Individuals who are homozygous with the recessive genetic disease will either produce few or no offspring, and eventually continued inbreeding will either cause the population to die out as a result of all individuals having the disease, or the allele itself will be weeded out from the population as individuals will eventually be homozygous for all genes and any individuals carrying the deleterious recessive alleles would have the disease and produce few or no offspring. If the recessive deleterious allele is removed from the population, there is no longer any inbreeding depression.

If you have a population of organisms that do not show inbreeding depression, you do not want to introduce new genes into this population from another population. You would potentially introduce a deleterious recessive allele that will slowly proliferate in an inbreeding population and inbreeding depression will occur and increase over time until the population either loses the allele or dies out. Some mantids do show inbreeding depression, and the introduction of new genes usually reverses the affects, but you should remember that you're only preventing inbreeding depression and that it isn't a long-term solution as gene flow can eventually cause homozygosity in all populations--especially if each population is limited in individuals like in captive populations. Perhaps certain mantid species in captivity originated from a few lucky individuals that did not carry many, if any deleterious recessive alleles and over time inbreeding in captivity weeded out the few recessive genetic diseases they carried. Maybe Phyllocrania paradoxa is one of those freakishly lucky species.

I have tried to say this here so many times, but I never could have put it so eloquently. Great job!

 

[aNisip]

+1 beautifully done Ranitomeya!

 

[Mantisman.]

Good answer Ranitomeya, but I was not looking for the theory, I've already considered those things, don't get me wrong, I wanted to know about experimental results so I could figure out what happened in my case because I will keep this species again and I'll drive the same inbreeding tests, I think for what I've seen, ghost mantis has no trouble with inbreeding, but my case is contradictory, I'm not saying I couldn't keep the species because of inbreeding, but it's kind of weird that I didn't get at least a few generations, I've seen species as pseudocreoboter wahlbergii having deep trouble with this, although I think someone is in it's 3rd inbred generation of this species, but it's the only person who seems to have had success on that, thanks for your answer Ranitomeya.

 

[Ranitomeya]

Woops, I inadvertently forgot to answer your question while going into the basics of inbreeding genetics. It is possible that there are still deleterious recessive alleles within the population of mantids we keep that are not currently common, possibly because it's still in the process of being slowly being weeded out or because it's been introduced by gene flow. You might have just been unlucky enough to obtain mantids with these recessive alleles and subsequent inbreeding resulted in your line of mantids becoming homozygous for the alleles and dying off. There's also a chance that the die-off of your mantids might have been something environmental, because we never are capable of keeping every single thing the same in their captive care. We sometimes get different feeders from different sources, there might be aerial spraying of pesticides in your area, you could come into contact with some sort of contaminant that you introduced to their environment, and the list goes on. We also have to remember that one effect of inbreeding is that every individual in that population becomes so similar that an infectious disease could very quickly wipe them all out.

 

[Rick]

Ranitomeya said it.

But I am willing to bet the current "population" of captive mantids of this species are already quite inbred.

 

[gripen]

Ranitomeya said it.

But I am willing to bet the current "population" of captive mantids of this species are already quite inbred.

Exactly. Mantids get imported maybe once or twice if they are a common species. We may have ghosts that been inbred for over 20 generations. The only reason we do not acknowledge this is because when someone tries to breed a new species they say that that was there first generation of inbreeding while before they had been inbred for many generations.

 

[Reptiliatus]

Exactly. Mantids get imported maybe once or twice if they are a common species. We may have ghosts that been inbred for over 20 generations. The only reason we do not acknowledge this is because when someone tries to breed a new species they say that that was there first generation of inbreeding while before they had been inbred for many generations.

exactly