Heat lighting length on time

[sidewinder]

Mantids may have no problem adjusting to constant daylight....

The only animals that might not have a problem with constant daylight are some blind animals or those that live near the arctic circle. Insects that are used to a day/night photoperiod should not be exposed to constant light if you want them to live a normal life span and reproduce. Such a significant change in circadian rhythm does not promote health. It promotes stress.

Scott

 

[Orin]

It promotes stress.

You're welcome to your opinion but you have nothing to back it up. I don't believe constant daylight is a good thing for mantids, but it may well be harmless.

 

[sidewinder]

Orin,

My "opinion" has a lot of science behind it for animals in general. Specific to mantids, here are some quotes form the Rearing and Breeding Mantids chapter of The Praying Mantids:

"A consistent daily light cycle is critical for the well being of all animals."

"There is anecdotal evidence that inappropriate day length may increase the number of eggbound females in temperate species."

"[Causes of mortality]...anything that disrupts the normal hormonal patterns of nymphal development can also cause problems. This underscores the need for stable and appropriate lighting, temperature, humidity, and food supply."

I think I will take the "opinion" of someone, Dr. David Yager, that runs a lab that has raised over 90 species of mantids over period of at least 15 years over yours or mine.

Scott

 

[mrblue]

You're welcome to your opinion but you have nothing to back it up. I don't believe constant daylight is a good thing for mantids, but it may well be harmless.

even IF there was absolutely no evidence for lack of a day/night cycle being harmful, theres no practical reason not to offer it. i say if in doubt or in an absence of evidence, go with common sense/nature.

 

[Orin]

Solo,

Yager has no data on keeping mantids under constant daylight and I imagine you understand the quotes you pulled are just, at best, anecdotal guestimates.

MrBlue, in nature only approximately 2 of every 200-2,000 mantids hatched ever reach adulthood. A hobbyist with that record wouldn't be one you'd want to emulate.

 

[mrblue]

MrBlue, in nature only approximately 2 of every 200-2,000 mantids hatched ever reach adulthood. A hobbyist with that record wouldn't be one you'd want to emulate.

unless you are suggesting that so few reach adulthood in nature because they are exposed to a day and night cycle then that is a completely irrelevant and slightly absurd point to make, in the context of this discussion

 

[sidewinder]

Solo,Yager has no data on keeping mantids under constant daylight and I imagine you understand the quotes you pulled are just, at best, anecdotal guestimates.

MrBlue, in nature only approximately 2 of every 200-2,000 mantids hatched ever reach adulthood. A hobbyist with that record wouldn't be one you'd want to emulate.

Orin,

Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?

Dr. Yager is far more experienced at raising mantids than you or anyone else here. He has probably forgotten more about raising mantids than you or anyone else here will ever know. Yet you dismiss his text saying it is "anecdotal guestimates"?

These mantids evolved other hundreds of thousands of years to thrive in the environments we find them in today. The environment they experience in their native habitats IS what is best for them. Negative aspects of their environments, including predation, competition, food supply, and extreme weather, are a few major reasons why so few mantids make it to adulthood. If hobbyists do their job right, those issues don't exist or are severely mitigated.

Scott

 

[Peter Clausen]

[SIZE=10pt]Admin Note: A few concerning posts had been temporarily set to invisible in this topic. After (prior) recent events involving deleted posts, our new policy as moderators is to temporarily set the posts to invisible while we get a second moderator's opinion on them. We made this change to ensure that moderators were acting fairly towards members they may have personal disagreements with. It is a difficult situation for me to mediate when concerning posts are deleted, but when we set them to invisible, the trail of evidence is more clear.[/SIZE]

In this particular case (this topic on "Heat lighting length on time"), I have reset the questionable and contentious posts back to visible. It's okay for people to have differing opinions, but there is a fine line that we must all walk. It is okay to attack another's opinion, but not okay to attack them as a person. For future reference, if anybody has a problem with the way this forum is managed, the appropriate response is NOT to start a new topic to vent your frustrations. The appropriate response IS to PM me. We're all human. We all make mistakes. We don't make huge changes to or within our community based on how well individuals get along with each other. However, warn points will be assessed for behaviors that are hurtful to our community.)

It may be difficult for members to appreciate the continuous (and unpaid) effort that is required to keep this forum family-friendly for years on end. Rick, Ian and Orin have been doing just that for many years with few complaints. To be perfectly clear, I am the owner of this forum and I have the ultimate decision on how things are done. I think the moderators will tell you that I do a very good job at pooling opinions before any major changes are made and that my goals are with the best interest of the community in mind.

 

[Peter Clausen]

Most hobbyists know that almost every mantis available in the hobby does just fine at room temperatures, regardless of species. It is for this simple reason that a particular mantis species is even available in the hobby in the first place. We, as a hobby, are successful with what does well for us with a minimal amount of care (individuals have some personal success with difficult/unusual species, but these species don't get offered mainstream for more than a generation or two). Plain and simple! Available species do well at room temperature eating fruit flies, house flies, crickets and/or roaches. Aside from that, they need some humidity and space + place to molt from.

Katnapper is a new member and she just wants to learn about the care/health of her mantises.

Bottom line (just repeating what has already been said)- You can keep them at room temperature and they will do just fine. It's not necessary to keep them next to a light all night, nor will it likely harm your mantis in any noticeable way. Still, it's intuitively obvious to us that mimicking the natural patterns associated with any organism's native environment is ideal. This means a cycle of light and dark is naturally preferrable, though abnormal fluctuations will not kill your mantis.

While it may not be as ethical to keep non-native species at native temperatures, these are, afterall, pets for our enjoyment. It is clear that they have a better chance at a long life at any temperature comfortable to us, than they would in the wild.

Enjoy your wonderful pets that bring us all together, here!

 

[chun]

personally i think Orin suggested that a constant diurnal photoperiod is not ideal for mantids but it won't necessarily harm some species of mantids as there are no empirical evidence to suggest that a constant diurnal pattern will harm a mantid. None of us here are disagreeing on the fact that a constant diurnal pattern is good for the wellbeing of your mantid, but some species are capable of adapting and deal with such stresses. For example, one member on this forum used to breed mantids if i remember righly, Pseudempusa relatively successfully, whilst many others failed, with the light constantly on 24/7. In conclusion, it's not natural or ideal to deprive a mantid of a cicardian rhythm but it won't kill or harm them if they were subjected to such conditions. And i think that was the point Orin was trying to get across.

 

[sidewinder]

You can keep them [non-native mantid species] at room temperature and they will do just fine.

Peter,

I guess that depends on your definition of "just fine" and "room temperature". If you view room temperature as about 72° F and just fine means they will survive, then you are right in most cases. But do most people keep their rooms at 72° or more all the time? Not at my house. 60° F at night is not uncommon. Not to mention the total lack of emphasis on proper humidity and photoperiod. There is a reason that you read about so many sudden deaths, miss-molts, and failed matings here. A major reason is that not enough emphasis is placed on providing correct environmental conditions. And posts like this perpetuate the problem.

Can Hierodula membranacea survive at 72° F all the time? Sure. But H. membranacea would do much better if the temperature would get up to about 85° F degrees during the day and down to 72° F at night. Humidity at 50 to 60 percent would be good too. You want to breed H. membranacea? Then room temperature is not the way to go at all.

You are not going to go buy a tropical fish that expects 85° F and expect it to thrive at room temperature? Why should mantids be any different?

I know I am wasting my time on this because others more knowledgeable than myself have unsuccessfully attempted to make these points in the past. What is the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Scott

 

[sidewinder]

In conclusion, it's not natural or ideal to deprive a mantid of a cicardian rhythm but it won't kill or harm them if they were subjected to such conditions.

You have no basis to conclude this. Exogenous rhythms are quite important to maintain for animal health and well being. Just because there have been no specific scientific experiments in this area in regards to mantids does not mean that are somehow magically different than other animals.

Scott

 

[Cosmic]

Great thread,

Scott, could I ask what species of mantid have you personally kept, reared and breed, and also what sort of conditions you have personally kept them at?

 

[sidewinder]

Cosmic,

I have kept, reared, and breed:

Mantis religiosa religiosa

Stagmomantis californica

Stagmomantis carolina

Tenodera sinensis

They were kept at around 65° F at night and up to 80° F during the day. The light cycle was typically 14 hours day and 10 hours night. Mantis religiosa religiosa and S. californica were troublesome to keep for more than one or two generations.

I have not kept tropical mantids as of yet. But I know the temperate species are typically harder to keep.

I have experience with tropical reptiles and arachnids. Oh, and tropical fish too (not the easy to keep species either). The most challenging environmental conditions to get right were for breeding fish (cichlids and discus).

Scott

 

[Peter Clausen]

Hi Scott,

To answer your questions that were directed to me and possibly to add a healthy dose of perspective to counteract that self-proclaimed sanity issue you referred to (because I really do want you to be happy here):

My personal working definition of room temperature was described in my last post. I'm not interested in Webster's definition, so don't bother debating me over what is common sense. (Advanced apologies to any Eskimos living in igloos that are surfing the forum at this time for care tips on their H. membrancea.) [this is just Me, lightening up.]

Regarding the problems that you read about on this forum, remember that "problems" are the reasons there ARE posts on this forum. People don't write posts about the 200 mantises they raised successfully. They write posts discussing why 1 in 200 went wrong. Make sense? (and Katnapper was trying to prevent that 1 and she seems to have had her question answered to her satisfaction at this point and that IS the point.)

Regarding your usage of the term "much better" in the context of H. membranacea, it depends on what your goals with the pet are. I already touched on this in my post too, but there are two perspectives here:

1. pet (what's best for the people that keep them= enjoying our pets)

2. mantis (what is ethically/biologically best for the mantis= mimicking its natural conditions which is perfectly impossible)

In the ten+ years I've been answering people's questions about pet mantises, many of them prefer to keep them cooler because it will extend the life of their pets. Remember, 99% of us are here for the pet aspects of the mantis hobby. I think you often fail to see the big picture in terms of what the average person is interested in learning about here. If you are here for yourself and have deep questions of your own, then I can understand the source of your frustrations. This may not be the forum for you, no matter how hard you try to make it that. If you are an animal rights activist, I can understand the source of your concern for "precise" conditions (though they don't exist in nature or in captivity...in Mantis Heaven, maybe.). But your constant hair-splitting is totally taking away the fun in helping Katnapper and the average, new hobbyist out, here...at least for me.

This stuff is fun and we love our pets! Very few of us are interested in stressing over fractions of degrees or humidity and it is misleading to cause people unnecessary worry. There is science and there is hobby. This forum is mainly hobby-oriented. I do enjoy reading some of the scientific points that you and others bring to the table, but, by and large, most of us are just here to learn how to take care of our pets with the least bit of difficulty. This is the recipe for longterm enjoyment...convenience is the key to success...and, of course, sharing the hobby with others in a spirit of fascination and apprecation for mantises (and the people who keep them) enhances the experience! Taking care of mantises really isn't a science, nor do most of us want it to be. It's pretty simple stuff with a little bit of knowledge, confidence and practice.

You just said you have not raised H. membranacea and my experience seems to be in conflict with what you haven't experienced.

I understand the source of your frustration in the last section of your post to me, but I think the source of your frustration is the result of your goals here vs. the average member's goals here. When you publicly display your frustrations, you should expect a public discussion of them.

Katnapper, if you did still have any questions about any of this, please feel safe to ask. This is YOUR topic!

 

[chun]

You have no basis to conclude this. Exogenous rhythms are quite important to maintain for animal health and well being. Just because there have been no specific scientific experiments in this area in regards to mantids does not mean that are somehow magically different than other animals.Scott

i'm not disagreeing with you on the fact that exogenous rhythms are not important in maintaining good animal health and wellbeing, but mantids wont just drop dead if you deprive them of it even though it might incur other physiological effects or reduce reproductive success. Again, i want to make it clear a healthy rhythm is essential.

 

[PhilinYuma]

Peter:

Despite the rumors, neither the position of Secretary of State nor that of Ambassador to the UN has yet been decided for the new cabinet. After reading your post, I sent an Email to some old friends in Chicago, and when they see my name, they'll know what to do. I trust that this will not adversely affect your ability to continue in your roles as leader of the forum or manager of your store.

Yours,

Phil(inYuma)

 

[sidewinder]

Peter,

Like is I said, I don't expect any other response from you or most anyone else here. A search of the forum shows that "easy" is more important here than maintaining an environment equivalent to what the mantids experienced in their native habitats.

My 40 years of experience raising and breeding insects, arachnids, fish, reptiles, and amphibians has taught me that providing an environment similar to what the animals experience in their native habitats is important on several levels. Insects don't exhibit signs of stress nearly as well as fish, reptiles, and amphibians.

Who here would buy tropical fish and not put a heater in their tank? Why should mantids be any different?

Ironically, it really isn't that difficult or expensive to provide a little more warmth for the tropical mantid species. But hey, the mantids can't tell you they are uncomfortable so it's easy to assume all is well as long as they continue to live, right?

I'll stop banging my head against the wall now.....

Scott

 

[sidewinder]

i'm not disagreeing with you on the fact that exogenous rhythms are not important in maintaining good animal health and wellbeing, but mantids wont just drop dead if you deprive them of it even though it might incur other physiological effects or reduce reproductive success. Again, i want to make it clear a healthy rhythm is essential.

chun,

Disrupting the exogenous rhythms can affect the endogenous rhythms as well.

I am not suggesting the mantids will just drop dead. My point is that just because a mantid continues to live does not mean it is not experiencing stress or even severe stress.

Scott

 

[chun]

chun,Disrupting the exogenous rhythms can affect the endogenous rhythms as well.

I am not suggesting the mantids will just drop dead. My point is that just because a mantid continues to live does not mean it is not experiencing stress or even severe stress.

Scott

like i've said before disrupting the exogeneous rhythm could and will incur physiological effect and reduce reproductive potential so i am not disagreeing with you at all.