Interbreeding

[Gill]

Lombardo F. (1995) A review of the genus Popa Stil1856 (Insecta Mantodea). Tropical Zoology, 8(2) 257-267.

"It is suggested that Mantis undata Fabricius, 1793 does not belong to the genus Popa Stil 1856 as believed until now, but to the Indian genus Ambivia StAl, 1877 (n. comb.). The systematic position of the species of Popa is re-examined and a single species, Popa spurca StAl, 1856 (= P. undata auct. nec Fabricius) is recognised. The species is differentiated into two subspecies, one being Popa spurca spurca Stil, 1856 (= P. stuhlmanni Rehn 1914, P. batesi Saussure & Zehntner 1895) (n. syn.) widespread throughout all Africa south of the Sahara, except in the east which is populated by the other subspecies, P. spurca crassa (Giglio-Tos 1917)."

Ta Tier. I use TOLweb a lot as I not got Ehrmann and tolweb has a lot of the Ehrmann lists and it showed Popa as one species.

Ta What for making clear the issues involved in a concise and comprehensible way.

Many similar quandries to Nikko's occur and I don't think the answer is always Oi stop you'll make freaks. The answer is not always yay new blood either. I think an effort should be made to preserve culture lines but if it risks the culture remaining in culture then consideration and discussion of the way forward is responsible.

With some genera like Miomantis, they are very difficult to classify and so we often see Mio sp. Creo sp. In addition for many imported species the id can be initially wrong, the current culture Sphodromantis cf. aurea is a great example as it has had four names to date. This is where the 'never been down' for me IGM is so handy http://www.hotel-grille.de/IGM-Nummern.htm.

One day Popa spurca and Popa spurca crassa might become two biologically distinct species.

Phil. The problem with crossbreeding lines that carry an IGM number is that that number no longer applies. Isn't that obvious? If IGM numbers have value, then producing a non IGM strain from two IGM strains robs them of a lot of useful information.

At Phil, many people advertise for breeding stock without mentioning the culture source. This has been seen as a problem most recently with Deroplatys lobata as a few geographically distinct stocks have been around at the same time. Whilst the pure stock of a Deroplatys lobata exists it has the number and is labelled pure stock and if you breed with a seperate stock you use a mixed stock number or no number. If no pure stock remains but the culture is still going it gets labelled mixed.

 

[What]

Throughout your interesting post, your English seems to be seriously challenged. Is it s a second language for you? If so, you do remarkably well, but I am at a loss to see where some of your problems are entomological or etymological. Certainly, though, a sentence like "Please stop your intentionally obtuse behavior" makes no sense whatsoever.

Ironic irony right there. English is my first language, I will admit to the typo of capitalizing "especially" but aside from that I cannot find any real errors in my post that you(who cannot figure out the quote function, apparently) should be criticizing if your point was actually supported.

You seem to be confusing subspecies, which bear a trinomial, and races, throughout. Let me make the situation more direct and simple by asking you to select a genus of Mantodea and name its subspecies. The problem with crossbreeding lines that carry an IGM number is that that number no longer applies. Isn't that obvious? If IGM numbers have value, then producing a non IGM strain from two IGM strains robs them of a lot of useful information.

I am doing no such thing. In my post I state that the crossing of the IGM Popa spurca and the IGM P. undulata(which as tier posted = P. spurca) is little more than a crossing of two "races" of a species, so he would simply be breeding P. spurca("just bred a species"). If he wanted to label these offspring he could label them Popa spurca(IGM # X IGM #) which would clearly state exactly what the mantis is. (Gill/tier, if that is wrong please feel free to correct me.)

You miss the point entirely. A scientist (entomologist!) would discourage you from maintaining the hybrid, especially if it is capable, as most surely are, of a back cross.

It is not I who is missing the point being made, Phil. "The value of hybridization as a tool in elucidating phylogeny has been well documented by Hubbs (1967)(a paper dealing with hybrid fish)." - Hybrids Between Callosamia and Samia (Saturniidae) - Piegler R.S. 1978 In his paper here he describes amazing back crossings to achieve a successful Callosamia (securifera♂ X angulifera♀)♂ X [angulifera♂ X (angulifera♂ X securifera♀)♀]♀ mating that resulted in a fertile ova. Here also is a paper by Dr. Schmidt exploring Latrodectus crossings: http://www.european-arachnology.org/proceedings/13th/215-222_Schmidt.pdf

So what were you saying about scientists now?

 

[PhilinYuma]

OK, let me make a concession right here. Your English is appalling.("ironic irony" ?), but once I work my way around it, it is not, usually, unfathomable. You do seem to be a little hostile and aggressive in addressing a stranger, though. Perhaps you are just very young.

So let us look at what you are saying. There is no provision in the IGM system for the imaginary designation that you suggest. Are you familiar with the system? On a good day (when the site is operating properly) it is not difficult to check out.

Your quotations are, I am confident, without checking, accurate, but you seem to be unable to distinguish between the research of a scientist publishing a refereed paper in an authorized, journal and an amateur, like Niko, you or me, doing home grown experiments.

I'm out of here after this. I notice, though, that, although I have no idea who you are, you address me as "Phil", a term frequently used and welcomed by friends and colleagues on this forum. In this case, though, you might wish to refer to me as Dr. Rayner, PhD. As I once said, years ago on this forum, I have no intention of being kicked to death by a canary.

 

[Malti]

*steps into the battleground*

I don't think Nikkko is doing anything bad - I did the same thing with fish (Xiphophorus maculatus x Xiphophorus helleri), finding out that the hybrids, were fertile, with better "maternal instincts"(not eating the young) but very weak to changes in temp/ph etc, and smaller broods. Kept all the fry and thus there was no species contamination problems.

Now lemme get ready for the flak...

:tank:

 

[What]

OK, let me make a concession right here. Your English is appalling.("ironic irony" ?), but once I work my way around it, it is not, usually, unfathomable. You do seem to be a little hostile and aggressive in addressing a stranger, though. Perhaps you are just very young.

My "ironic irony" statement is in response to your appearing to be deliberately dense*. If you are not deliberately doing so and your behavior(missing my very clear point) has not been intentional Dr. Phil (Rayner) then we should end our discussion right here as we will make no progress talking any further. If I am being hostile then I do not know what to call your bringing my usage of the English language** into things, questioning my age, or anything else when your point is not being supported by anything but your "title". Your position is further drawn into question by your statement that hybrids would be discouraged by those working on the mantids/organisms(they would be interested in the results, if my experiences are correct) and your incorrect statement that insect subspecies are rare. If you can support either of those statements in any manner I would love to see that.

*- I am rephrasing from "intentionally obtuse" because you didnt get that, see why this is ironic? Or should I spell it out further? =/

**- Which, btw, got me As/Bs in HS, an A in the college English course that I have taken, an A in both philosophy classes I have taken, and a very respectable essay score on the SAT.

So let us look at what you are saying. There is no provision in the IGM system for the imaginary designation that you suggest. Are you familiar with the system? On a good day (when the site is operating properly) it is not difficult to check out.

I am not familiar with the IGM system. The "imaginary designation" I suggest was based upon a common sense approach following my earlier statement: "If they are of different and established "lines" then they should be marked as a crossing of lines, not that hard". If you are misunderstanding my point because you are clinging to a difference in the IGM system's reality and my hypothetical example...then, again, it is not I who is missing the point.

Your quotations are, I am confident, without checking, accurate, but you seem to be unable to distinguish between the research of a scientist publishing a refereed paper in an authorized, journal and an amateur, like Niko, you or me, doing home grown experiments.

What place in your world, Dr Rayner, is there for a man like Wendell Icenogle, a man without a college degree, who has contributed more than most do in a lifetime to our knowledge of the (primarily) arachnid fauna of California, and who knows more(by their admittance) than almost every arachnologist I have mentioned his name to? In your world, he is merely an amateur yet in mine he is an inspiration and proves just how valuable hobbyists are to science. Where do you draw the line between research done by an "amateur" and the research done by a "scientist"?

What does that line have to do with your telling us that a scientist would discourage hybrids and that they are without value? (Which as I stated before, you are trying hard to change the topic from.)

I'm out of here after this. I notice, though, that, although I have no idea who you are, you address me as "Phil", a term frequently used and welcomed by friends and colleagues on this forum. In this case, though, you might wish to refer to me as Dr. Rayner, PhD. As I once said, years ago on this forum, I have no intention of being kicked to death by a canary.

I addressed you as Phil, the first part of your username which combines your name and location, if you would like to be addressed by another name perhaps you should not have used Phil as part of your name but rather DrRaynerinYuma. If you would like to know more about me, feel free to send me a PM and I can give you a rundown on who What is. I am not anyone special, I am not anyone with credentials, I am simply an amateur by your earlier reasoning.

Anyways...hopefully that post is clear, its 3:30am here in California but my post seems sensible to me.

 

[nebrakacinese]

People in thiland where they fight fish have been releasing their hybreds at least a century,there are 4 species of bettas that fall within the same genus, as hybreds.So nobody really knows for sure the species swimming in these waters.I used to raise Betta's, and still find it disturbing,that the genetic purity of these fish have been comprimised.I know their not mantids,just my thoughts on the subject.

 

[Ntsees]

People in thiland where they fight fish have been releasing their hybreds at least a century,there are 4 species of bettas that fall within the same genus, as hybreds.So nobody really knows for sure the species swimming in these waters.I used to raise Betta's, and still find it disturbing,that the genetic purity of these fish have been comprimised.I know their not mantids,just my thoughts on the subject.

Yeah, I'm am aware of what you said and it's too bad that it's happening. The best thing you can do is try to be able to distinguish the original fish from the hybrids. Even then, it might not be enough but at least you have a representative that resembles the true species. In addition to being fond of mantids, I'm also fond of wild bettas from the splendens complex. I raise Betta smaragdina.

(sorry for going off topic on a mantid post)

 

[d17oug18]

I dont know Philinyuma, What has some good points. Awesome debate, i wish this wasn't taken personally because i would love for this to go on. From what i read, gather, interpret I personally think any breeder/hobbyist is an amateur that does not photograph, report, graph, and keep track of what there breeding. As such would not be integrable to the sciences of whats being done, simply posting here and there would not suffice to anyone with real importance. With that being said, trying to hybrid a species, that would not live naturally even if it did escape is no threat. If this person did create a fertile ooth and its nymphs viable to be adults and breed further would die off in the natural US seasons that are no where near tropical/desert like, were they come from.

I say do it. Im 100% positive that a lot of others tried it with a lot of species and even if it worked. Would that new hybrid need different environments? Would that new hybrid need different food? Would that hybrid need something special that its counter parts did not? This is where i think Philinyuma's logic comes into play. How would a regular hobbyist know to separate and treat each nymph differently just in case? How do we not know that is why, when a hybrid was created that it wasn't that they were weak, maybe they just needed different care and the irresponsible breeder was unaware of it, so they died off?

My thoughts anyway. Im no scientist and i AM a college graduate but only for cooking lol.

 

[lion]

This is what African honeybees do when they're not killing Americanized Portuguese.

Sorry just a bit of sarcasm for the kids who want a new colour candy.

 

[ismart]

I personally just believe it's just a big waste of time! I have both wild Tenodera sinensis, and Tenodera angustipennis. They are both in overlapping habitats. They are both in the same genus. I have witnessed them mating with one another in the wild, and yet i have yet to come across a single hybrid. Year after year it's the same.

 

[What]

I personally just believe it's just a big waste of time! I have both wild Tenodera sinensis, and Tenodera angustipennis. They are both in overlapping habitats. They are both in the same genus. I have witnessed them mating with one another in the wild, and yet i have yet to come across a single hybrid. Year after year it's the same.

It could be simply that those species cannot hybridize, that is quite often the case.

Something that all of you might find interesting...hybrid speciation happening right here in the USA(naturally, no less)! http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~kunte/PapilioGlaucus.htm A very very very rare case indeed, but it does happen.

I dont know Philinyuma, What has some good points. Awesome debate, i wish this wasn't taken personally because i would love for this to go on.

...How do we not know that is why, when a hybrid was created that it wasn't that they were weak, maybe they just needed different care and the irresponsible breeder was unaware of it, so they died off?

If Philinyuma wants to continue the discussion I am happy to, this is a topic I enjoy talking over with people endlessly, lol. To answer your question, there are many cases where you simply cannot know... but even so, if you managed to get fertile ooths with nymphs from a pairing of two species, even if all the nymphs died, that information is important. People making attempts in the future could pick up exactly where you left off, possibly with parents whose genes are more conducive to hybridization.

 

[dragon]

Hmm, having issues trying to use the multiquote option. Is there something unique in the system used here? On any other forum I frequent, I would click on the multiquote for each quote I wish to include in my post then quote for the last one. I would then be taken to a reply window in which I then make my replies and post. Here however, if I click on Multiquote, I immediately get taken to a reply window without being able to add additional quotes before replying. Rather irritating. Makes addressing all the various points quite difficult. Anyhow, onto the subject at hand............

The subject of whether to create hybrids or not comes up on many different forums. Amongst plant hobbyists it doesn't seem to be an issue. Among those dealing with fauna it can be a very controversial topic as seen here. I wasn't truly surprised to see things "heat up" here though was somewhat disappointed.

One thing I have noticed on the fauna related forums, is that it seems very rare to see any explanation of WHY hybrids should perhaps be avoided. Oh yes there is always the arguement for species purity but no reason given as to why that would be important. It seems that those posting such an opinion simply assume that it should be self evident whereas I suspect that for many people it is not. So why would you say purity matters? Be specific.

Now sterility of hybrids and lack of vigor is often the case, as was mentioned. However, there are times that increased vigor results (a common reason for hybridization in plants) and even sterility is not guaranteed. Mules, the offspring of a horse (Equus caballus) and a donkey (Equus assinus), are usually very vigorous -- combining some of the best attributes of both parents -- and some are actually fertile though this is rare. But again, assuming lack of vigor and sterility of the cross, this again does not provide a strong rationale for not doing the cross. If the intent is to bring about a new food crop or animal food source that is one thing. A less vigorous offspring would be a waste of resources. But if one is investigating behavioral traits, as one poster mentioned with a fish cross or wants a pack animal with the durability of a donkey but larger size more like that of a horse, then an arguement can be made as to the value of trying such a cross.

Btw, in answer to a Q, just because a viable, fertile hybrid results, that does not mean that the parents are actually the same species. Speciation has a number of facets that would take longer to go into. In the example above, though it is possible to get a fertile mule that does not mean that donkeys and horses are really the same species nor does it mean the hybrid is a new species.

One poster essentially said (sorry if I could get the multiquote function to work I could do the exact quote) that even if the hybrid proves to be vigorous & fertile and escapes into the wild the conditions would not be favorable to its continuation. That is assuming that

1) neither of the parents could survive in that environment; and

2) that the hybrids in question REMAIN in this unfavorable environment.

Many invasive species have been inadvertantly introduced into environments hundreds of miles from their native regions. All it takes is a hybrid's eggsac/pregnant individual stowing away in a shipping crate that happens to carry it to a destination with more favorable conditions. If such an occurance does happen, then there is the potential for a variety of undesirable outcomes. The hybrid may prove to be better suited than other species in that new local and out compete them. There is also the possibility of diseases using the hybrid as a "bridge", providing a pathogen with the means by which to more easily adapt and cross species barriers so it can now infect a species it previously could not.

On an extraneous note, What, I really don't see Dr. Phil Rayner (Philinyama) confusion with your obtuse comment not making sense. For a "Dr." I would have to say perhaps his English could use some review. He did seem to be rather oblivious to how his own posts came across. However, one of the drawbacks of the written word is tone and intent do not always come across well. Perhaps he was unaware of how his post sounded. Ah well, c'est la vie!

 

[Malti]

People in thiland where they fight fish have been releasing their hybreds at least a century,there are 4 species of bettas that fall within the same genus, as hybreds.So nobody really knows for sure the species swimming in these waters.I used to raise Betta's, and still find it disturbing,that the genetic purity of these fish have been comprimised.I know their not mantids,just my thoughts on the subject.

the bad part is releasing them to the wild. I did have cross breed bettas (Dragons) so I know what you're refering to.

 

[PhilinYuma]

O.K. here goes. First, I think that i was much too harsh in my comments above. We all remember, I am sure, Gladstone's famous speech against the Reform Act of 1831 when he was the equivalent of of an American H.S. senior. It got him a seat in parliament at the age of 22, but even he agreed, in later years, that his position was a little extreme, though "there was, to my eyes, an element of the Anti-Christ about [it]".

This topic comes up every 6 months or so. The last one that I remember was in Jan of this year, when Ghozt thought that he had mated two disparate mantids: http://mantidforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=20264&st=0

By far the best post in that thread was Pragmatic hominid's monosyllabic "why?" To which somebody replied, "Why not?" "If you think that atomic weapons are a threat to mankind, why do you continue to stockpile them?" "Why not?" "Why are you sticking your hand in that hole in the rocks that obviously has an unhappy rattler in it?" "Why not? Here, hold my beer."

So you cross breed. If you are a primitive Christian, you are frustrating God's creation. If you are scientifically oriented, you are taking two species with a genome that specifically fits each species to its environment and jumbling them randomly together.

You mentioned, What, that interbreeding is not unusual in nature. Certainly it is not, but the production of a hybrid is rare indeed, because the hybrid is not adapted to its environment. In captivity, though, weak nymphs that would not survive in nature, may be preserved.

I think that many advocates of cross breeding believe that a mantis so produced will be "a cool new species". It almost certainly will not. Look at the crosses between dogs, coyotes and wolves. Cool new species? No, they are neither shin nor Shinola. The Cichlasoma hybrids that I mentioned in the previous thread had nothing to commend them physically and, thankfully, were unable to cross breed in F1. Will all breeders of such freaks be responsible and maintain them separately? The fool who produced these sports was trying to sell them at a national convention! "Why not?"

And that's that, except to add, What, that your internet citations are the most interesting and to the point that i have seen on this forum, even if you are of the devil's party.

 

[What]

"Why not?" And that's that, except to add, What, that your internet citations are the most interesting and to the point that i have seen on this forum, even if you are of the devil's party.

I think we would be able to agree on this matter, or at least agree that each other's position is sound, if we were talking verbally. The keeping/breeding of hybrids is a complex matter with many caveats needing to be met to "ensure safety" through the process and discourage the distribution of them. I agree that having people foolishly backcross hybrid offspring into pure stock which is then sold as pure stock is a bad thing, but it is those actions that are bad not hybrids themselves.

I wouldnt be too surprised if someone made a real effort that they could end up with an consistent true breeding hybrid...it might even look interesting, who knows. Thankfully...mantids are bugs and unlike mammalian or reptilian hybrids people are unlikely to care about them being thrust (lovingly ) into a freezer. Any offspring that are not quite as healthy as they could be, not as interesting as they could be, deformed, or that you do not have space for should have just such an experience... Hopefully anyone who knows enough about their captives to be attempting hybridization will have enough sense to follow that simple rule.

As another aside about hybrids and hobbies, the Psalmopoeus iminia x cambridgei tarantula matings that have occurred over time in the T hobby have all (to my knowledge) resulted in quite similar looking offspring. I picked up this female that was being sold with a sibling male via another SoCal person and I have seen photos of 3-4 other adults. Quite pretty Ts, really.

 

[PhilinYuma]

Just a brief note to thank the 23 members who p.m.'d me to point out that Gladsone (b.December, 1809) was 21 at the time of this speach which was delivered, of course , to the Oxford Union. I made the rare and often disastrous mistake of quoting from memory.As a penance, though a very pleasant one, I have set myself to reread his biography by Roy Jenkinsons.

 

[GreenOasis]

From what I have learned on here, there has already been an issue of cross-breeding with the Shields (prior to my keeping them) by a certain person who, whether by lack of knowledge or lack of concern, either accidentally or intentionally bred two closely-related (and almost indistinguishable) Rhombodera sp. together. I feel like, if it made the species stronger, that might be a good thing for the hobbyists who keep them for pets, but...there are so many purists in the world of mantids, it was a completely irresponsible thing to do, and then, if they sold off those nymphs as "pure" (because they are afraid people won't want them any other way), then that really compounds the issue and that is why hybridizing is so unwelcome here.

Cynics, like Phil, will say that hybridizing is in no way responsible and tantamount to "playing God"...and all that results from it are horrible abonimations that should be immediately destroyed,

Others will argue the other side and say, "Well, it could be a good thing when done responsibly." Or, "It happens in the wild anyway, look at the Polar Grizzlies, Wolf-Coyotes & intergraded snakes of all kinds!"

I will just say that is HAS been done and WILL be done, time & time again. The only way any respect for hybridizing will be gained is if it is done with respect to the science involved, with detailed notes taken and absolute security & disclosure of the offspring produced.

When it is done for the sake of $$$ because you just happen to have ONLY females of this one species, and really want to mate it...When you are then overcome with WAY too many mixed-genetics offspring and want to sell or distribute them (but without disclosing their mixed genetics)...that is where the problem arises. And it is a serious problem.

We take chances by keeping these guys as it is, and we tread a very thin line with gov officials, it only takes a few sloppy individuals to accidentally (or purposefully) release them to ruin the whole hobby for the rest of us.

These problems also plague the reptile hobby, but fortunately, reptile folks who engage in irresponsible acts such as those are quickly black-listed by the community and they are lucky to be able to get rid of anything they produce. On the other hand, those who do hybridize and take meticulous notes & are very upfront about it, do well in the reptile community and are sought out by those who don't mind such "freaks".

I think the same would be true here, if given the chance to occur.

Just my two cents.

 

[Ntsees]

+1 to the above post.

 

[PhilinYuma]

"Cynics, like Phil, will say that hybridizing is in no way responsible and tantamount to "playing God"...and all that results from it are horrible abonimations that should be immediately destroyed,"

A little presumptuous of you to characterize me, isn't it Green Oasis? I don't remember ever referring to anything as a "horrible abonimation", and I wonder if you have any idea what a cynic is. It seems unlikely that you are talking of Diogenes, in his barrel, one of the best known Greek Cynic philosophers, who believed that the goal of life is happiness, which is to live in agreement with Nature. That leaves us with the current American definition which is "a person who believes that selfishness motivates human actions."

Well, no, not I. You will remember that you filled numerous posts indicting Frey for the fact that USPS had failed to deliver her package to you on time. Frey wanted to reimburse you, although in my opinion you did not deserve it, and finally I reimbursed you, at her expense, in cash, for the total of the mantids and postage. The last time I looked, you had never acknowledged this payment, so members would believe, until now, that no compensation had been made. Do I consider that selfishness on your part? A cynic, by definition, would, but not I.

You are one of what we used to call "the walking wounded" worrying about the effects of non existent genetically modified wheat and attempts to counsel your child instead of hitting him (I feel comfortable mentioning these things since you have posted them here in the past) and trying to lay your reflexive anger on others. (I have an email from you, stating that $60 worth of B. mendica would be an appropriate compensation for your $50.00 loss) I have no rebuke or advice for you, Green Oasis. You are what you are and even if someone could help you, I have seen no evidence that you would accept it.

But please don't call me a cynic! In fact, don't feel the need to mention me at all!

 

[d17oug18]

Snap-snapish-snappy-snap!!!! =) Now that was a well thought out 3 paragraphs, i just wanted to add that i think most people dont remember to add/fix/remove feedback when needed. If i knew what kinda deals people where making... =D i think i took the low road on that. This thread is basicly 50/50 on hybridizing mantids, and i dont think its going to change. Someones going to have to say something outside the box and really out there for people to open there eyes to another opinion they ALREADY feel is fact in there minds. Beliefs never change, Ideas constantly do. We should all live our lives of off ideas dont you think?