Internal parasites

[hibiscusmile]

I would think that the mantis that Rick found had an injury and the fly had landed on the mantis and just laid eggs in the injured spot. After all they do that with any animal or human where an injury is open, nothing new there.

I only say that because if it is just a fly as it seems, then this would be the case. Phil do you concure?

 

[MantidLord]

I would think that the mantis that Rick found had an injury and the fly had landed on the mantis and just laid eggs in the injured spot. After all they do that with any animal or human where an injury is open, nothing new there.I only say that because if it is just a fly as it seems, then this would be the case. Phil do you concure?

That's possible and it makes since, but then Rick must find a lot of injured mantids.

 

[PhilinYuma]

I'm far from worried, as my population isn't fed on wild feeders so I know that they won't be infected. I'm just extremely curious is all. I didn't know it was so common because when I look through the health section, I see nothing talking of the sorts, maybe the horse hair worm but that's all. Especially considering that this is by far one of the largest threads in this section (and possibly the whole mantis section) on this forum currently. And if it's so common, why is it that it's not Identified yet. But regardless of all that, my individual may not have been infected, in fact I hope it wasn't. But keep in mind that Joosa put a pic of an adult oratoria that was infected. So it probably doesn't just infect nymphs. I would guess it depends on when the mantis was infected itself. And by the way, I'm not trying to offend anyone, I just want to be clear. And it seems the only thing pointing my mantis away from having been infected is the lack of the parasite, which is understandable but hey, some things can't be explained.

Yes, you ask some good questions.

First, as Christian mentioned, there are three families of parasitoid flies the Sarcophagidae, Nemestrinidae and Tachinidae. I think (guess) that Rick's come from the last family because of the "neck" that separates the head from the thorax. They are (external) ectoparasites that lay their eggs on the body of their host, and may use a number of different hosts, like grasshoppers, beetles, true bugs and mantids.

The newly hatched larva uses an enzyme that softens the host's defensive cuticle, and burrows it's way in. It does not enter the host's digestive tract by any other manner. The eggs of an eaten fly would be digested by the mantis.

So, 1)Yes, we do know what the parasites are, if not the exact species. 2)We know where they come from. There are quite enough indigenous parasites to obviate the need for worrying about imported ones. 3) We probably don't know all of the insects parasitized by one family of flies, but we know that some directly parasitize mantids and that a mantis can't "catch" a parasite from eating infested prey, so this is not a very pressing issue. 4) It's not a coincidence that parasites are emerging from their hosts at this time of year. The hosts have served their usefulness, and in climates too cold to supply a new generation of flies with hosts immediately, the flies will overwinter as pupae.

I know that this repeats a lot of stuff that has gone before, but I hope that it pulls some of it together.

 

[MantidLord]

Yes, you ask some good questions.First, as Christian mentioned, there are three families of parasitoid flies the Sarcophagidae, Nemestrinidae and Tachinidae. I think (guess) that Rick's come from the last family because of the "neck" that separates the head from the thorax. They are (external) ectoparasites that lay their eggs on the body of their host, and may use a number of different hosts, like grasshoppers, beetles, true bugs and mantids.

The newly hatched larva uses an enzyme that softens the host's defensive cuticle, and burrows it's way in. It does not enter the host's digestive tract by any other manner. The eggs of an eaten fly would be digested by the mantis.

So, 1)Yes, we do know what the parasites are, if not the exact species. 2)We know where they come from. There are quite enough indigenous parasites to obviate the need for worrying about imported ones. 3) We probably don't know all of the insects parasitized by one family of flies, but we know that some directly parasitize mantids and that a mantis can't "catch" a parasite from eating infested prey, so this is not a very pressing issue. 4) It's not a coincidence that parasites are emerging from their hosts at this time of year. The hosts have served their usefulness, and in climates too cold to supply a new generation of flies with hosts immediately, the flies will overwinter as pupae.

I know that this repeats a lot of stuff that has gone before, but I hope that it pulls some of it together.

Wow, thanks a lot Phil. That answered all my questions and then some. So I take it the fly lays on the mantis when it is weak or when it is molting? Or does it simply over power the mantis? And one that just popped into my head, why does it stunt the growth of the mantis? I'm thinking that it's taking nutrients away from it but I don't want to assume.

 

[Peter Clausen]

Mantidlord,

It is possible that your I. oratoria ate the larva that emerged from its abdomen. In nature, the larva would fall and burrow into the ground. In captivity, the larva might not get as far. Also, the recurring point about the fly overpowing the mantis is curious. A mosquito, for example, has evolved several ways of sneaking up on you without needing to overpower you. Parasites are sneaky. Individuals that aren't sneaky don't pass on their genes. Individuals that do may have an opportunity to improve upon their stealth. Simple as that.

I like your theory about stunted growth. If a mantis is devoting energy to fighting off this parasite, it makes sense that it may not grow as quickly.

(we'll pin/sticky this thread when it has concluded)

 

[MantidLord]

Mantidlord, It is possible that your I. oratoria ate the larva that emerged from its abdomen. In nature, the larva would fall and burrow into the ground. In captivity, the larva might not get as far. Also, the recurring point about the fly overpowing the mantis is curious. A mosquito, for example, has evolved several ways of sneaking up on you without needing to overpower you. Parasites are sneaky. Individuals that aren't sneaky don't pass on their genes. Individuals that do may have an opportunity to improve upon their stealth. Simple as that.

I like your theory about stunted growth. If a mantis is devoting energy to fighting off this parasite, it makes sense that it may not grow as quickly.

(we'll pin/sticky this thread when it has concluded)

Thanks Peter, that did cross my mind that the parasite may have been eaten but I figured what mantis would be worried about food when a parasite just burst through its abdomen, but you never know. True that mosquitoes use stealth for us and other mammals but I'm curious to see how something would sneak up on a mantis. I know at times they seem oblivious to things and my be "daydreaming" but for something to come up to it and lay its eggs on a mantis is something I'd like to see. Sneaky or not, those flies are pretty daring.

I would think that if someone were to breed the flies and sacrifice a mantis "for the sake of science" to the flies, we would learn a lot more about this parasite. But what we know now is pretty informative. And thanks for listening

 

[Peter Clausen]

Didn't you say you saw a half eaten cricket at the time you found the mantis? I wouldn't put it past a mantis to continue to want food, despite a gaping hole in its abdomen. Eating is what they do. We also know what males do when they literally lose their heads!

It's not so much a matter of daring for these flies. It's what they do. I'd like to see it too! Maybe I'll go catch some of these tachinids in my backyard and sacrifice a few horse lubber grasshoppers to the cause. I do have a M. religiosa female that could "volunteer" too!

 

[Rick]

Wow, thanks a lot Phil. That answered all my questions and then some. So I take it the fly lays on the mantis when it is weak or when it is molting? Or does it simply over power the mantis? And one that just popped into my head, why does it stunt the growth of the mantis? I'm thinking that it's taking nutrients away from it but I don't want to assume.

Pretty simple actually like I said before. The fly probably just comes up from behind and lands on the mantis. I see flies landing on mantids all the time. These are nymphs so they don't have wings to use in flicking the fly off. It would be very easy for the fly to do. All of the ones I find with parasites are nymphs when everyone else is adult. That in and of itself tells you that it stunts their growth. Keep in mind I have two types here. The eight small flies that killed the mantis and the one large one that did not kill the host. I am going to put the flies in with a mantis but I suspect they will be eaten. I am still waiting on the big fly to eclose.

 

[Ntsees]

...the only thing moving when I saw the mantis two hours later, was the "breathing" abdomen of a cricket that was previously devoured....

Wait a sec. Peter pointed out something interesting. Are you sure that that "breathing" abdomen was from a cricket? It could be from a cricket, but then again, it could be the parasite (where it may look like the abdomen). Do you have crickets in the cage with the mantid (I hope the crickets didn't finish off the parasite before you got to it)?

 

[Rick]

Here is what I did to make a display:

Close up of the fly:

 

[ismart]

Cool! B) Now you have a new display for bugfest next year!

 

[Rick]

Cool! B) Now you have a new display for bugfest next year!

Exactly. That was the plan. I need to find something to put it in though.

The fly looks more like sarcophagidae based on the pics over at bugguide but I didn't find an exact match. One of the flies looks a lot different than the other ones. Wonder why that is?

 

[ismart]

It looks kinda like Tachinidae Exoristinae to me. Type that in the seach feature in bugnet, and tell me what you think?

 

[ismart]

One of the flies looks a lot different than the other ones. Wonder why that is?

Do you have a pic of that one?

 

[PhilinYuma]

Exactly. That was the plan. I need to find something to put it in though. The fly looks more like sarcophagidae based on the pics over at bugguide but I didn't find an exact match. One of the flies looks a lot different than the other ones. Wonder why that is?

Sarcophogids for sure From above, you can see those three (as opposed to four) stripes down the thorax. Parasitic flies and wasps usually leave a pheromone "marker" when they parasitize a host so that it doesn't become infested with more parasites than the host can support. Even other species can often identify these markers, but perhaps the parent of the larger parasite had a cold and couldn't smell the pheromones.

 

[Rick]

Do you have a pic of that one?

It has red eyes and the eyes are closer together. Also has a darker body. In the second pic it is the one on the far left.

 

[Rick]

It looks kinda like Tachinidae Exoristinae to me. Type that in the seach feature in bugnet, and tell me what you think?

Kinda but it seems different. There are so many flies..........

 

[ismart]

Kinda but it seems different. There are so many flies..........

Very true! After reading phil's post i did not even realize Sarcophgidae can also be parasites to other insects as well. I guess the only way we will really find out is if an entomologist can properly identify it. Rick, have you given any thought to sending one of the flies out to get an ID?

 

[Rick]

Very true! After reading phil's post i did not even realize Sarcophgidae can also be parasites to other insects as well. I guess the only way we will really find out is if an entomologist can properly identify it. Rick, have you given any thought to sending one of the flies out to get an ID?

Nah. I posted a pic on bugguide though.

 

[MantidLord]

@Peter: that's true, I guess even after two hours of the parasite coming out, it could have eaten it. But I wonder why the mantis didn't die. She was still on the branch when I found her though she was definitely on her way out. And I love how the religiosa female may "volunteer" for the job.

@Rick: yeah I see how that could happen to the mantis now. Makes complete since. I guess my lack of knowledge of the insects around mantids made me forget how easy it is for some species to take advantage of them.

@Ntsees: Yeah, it was from a cricket. The cricket was actually devoured by my Mantis religiosa female and I swapped her and the oratoria containers because I was worried about the oratoria female. Besides, the abdomen was way to large to have come out of that small hole.

Glad we got the ID of the species, and good job making a display Rick.