President Obama

[PhilinYuma]

Folks! don't read this if you are easily bored!

Yeah, for a young man who has had very little practice in debate ( did you belong to a club at schoo?l), you do very well indeed, Mr Mantid. Your sincerity is very apparent and praiseworthy, but of course, sincerity doesn't bring us to "truth" whatever that may be, it merely affirms that we are saying what we believe in. Hitler was sincere in believing that the Jews should be exterminated, but what he and perhaps millions of tyhose who supported him is to us, an abomination. Start looking at technique. you must have noticed by now that I never say a rude word to anyone, but that can just make an insult even more infuriating.

After that discussion, we hadn't changed each other's beliefs one whit, and won't have after this, so, surely, we can make the debate one of skill rather than slamming opposing beliefs at each other, however sincere. WhatIi think I'll do now is to accuse you of holding beliefs that could destroy the fabric of our society, and though i am not American, I have lived here longer than most members of this forum! I shall do it without "raising my voice."

I notice that though you advance arguments that are typical of conservative American Christians, you never mention God the Father or Jesus Christ in your discourse. Why don't you testify to your faith? I know that Behe and his "intelligent design" as a substitute for "creation" -- demonstrated convincingly in open court when the prosecution revealed a first draft of the book -- was to get around Godless governmental laws so that our children could be taught God's truth rather than socialistic, dehumanizing, evolution,. but why do you hide your light under a bushel? (When arguing with Christians, I have found it a good idea to know plenty of biblical allusions and texts.)

By doing so and propounding articles of faith --your particular brand of faith -- you seem to be announcing them as part of the natural scheme of things, a view, surely at variance with the vast majority of the world's population including many Christians.

What you are surely trying to do, is impose your rather narrow Christian tenets on all Americans by having them made into the law of the land. Abortion is not murder because it does not contravene the law of the land. Indeed, some Christian sects would regard despair as much more serious since it cuts us off from prevenient grace.

My mantids won't let me drag this on any longer, but you should have enough to get the idea. But I would like to know, if you have a moment why, if you are a Christian, you do not profess you faith.

Hang in there Mr. Mantid!

.

 

[jrh3]

Marriage is about two people who love each other who want to commit to a lifetime together.

That's how I've been raised to understand it and still how I understand it today.

Gender should have nothing to do with marriage. Two people who want to be married should. End of story. There is no reason marriage should be exclusive to a straight couple if their aims are identical to those of a gay couple.

Abortion is as murderous as not using every single one of your sperm cells if you ask me.

Some are born some are not. Stopping one from being born whilst trillions of possible souls will be denied birth by things other then abortion is very minor. Life is about chance , and chances are out of the huge amounts of possible children that a couple could have only a few will succeed in living. Millions will perish into non existence. abortion is just adding one more of those denied souls to millions of others who because of fate could not be born. Not a big deal. Just life carrying on. And it's not even like they are souls that rival ours. We're talking about fetuses.

And if someone is raped why would they want to keep the child? I have no hard feelings for people getting abortions in such scenarios.

Marriage is not just about love, it is about commitment, and many other things. It is not just 2 people who love each other. There is a difference between brotherly love. It is also where 2 opposites of sex combine to make 1. If you can sho me where a gay marriage can continue life by creating children, I will show you a dwarf purple flying elephant that eats french fries. Gay marriage was not ment to be if it was one would be able to carry a child. Look at every animal on earth, how many gay animals do you see reproducing to continue the population, zip, nada, nill. Point made. :tank: Better yet how many animals do you see trying to woo the same sex, but yet you do see 2 males that fight over 1 female just to mate to REPRODUCE. There is a purpose of life dont get me started on abortion.

 

[patrickfraser]

So, infertile straight people shouldn't marry either, right? Heaven forbid the infertility is due to a botched abortion.

 

[jrh3]

So, infertile straight people shouldn't marry either, right? Heaven forbid the infertility is due to a botched abortion.

i knew this was coming . thats just a part of lifes purpose, some are not ment to concieve. please if you will show me where same sex is correct. What part of the life cycle or any cycle does 2 of the same connect, ever heard of sodom and gomorrah :chef:

 

[patrickfraser]

I've heard of that place. I thought my friends were joking when they sent me a postcard last summer. Looks like a fun place with lots of "connections" and "hooking up". "Wish I were there".

 

[Ricardo]

I disagree.

Gender has everything to do with marriage.

mar·riage/ˈmarij/Noun

1. The formal union of a man and a woman, typically recognized by law, by which they become husband and wife.

Notice that it does not say a "man and a man" or "woman and a woman" Will two Hyrdogen atoms form an Oxide ion? No, Oxide contains a Hydrogen atom and an Oxygen atom. You cannot form an Oxide atom out of 2 hydrogen atoms joining or 2 oxygen atoms joining. Likewise two men or two woman cannot form a marriage. Marriage is defined as one man and one woman, as Oxide is defined as an Oxygen atom with a Hydrogen atom.

Individual sperm and egg cells are only alive in the same sense that any other human cell is "alive". A fetus differs than an individual sperm or egg cell as it is a LIVE HUMAN BEING with rights and a soul just like the rest of us.

Life isn't about chance, it's about purpose among other things. We began to exist for a reason, a purpose, not by some lucky dice throw that we began with that is continually going on.

Why should a rape victim keep their child? You recognise the unborn baby, (zygote, blastocyst, embryo, fetus) as a child. A child is a human being. The unlawful killing of a human being is murder. Therefore abortion is wrong. Rape is a tragic thing, but that tragedy shouldn't be compounded by another crime: Murdering the baby.

Like I said before. Life is an endeavor of chance and if billions of potential babies cannot possibly be given the gift of life , then one fetus barely makes any difference. Plus why pass down the rapist genes? kidding. Still though, I suppose we both understand where we stand about abortion. nothing more to really argue about that , it's now merely who agrees on what since we've already established why.

Also regardless of your definition of marriage , the concept of marriage at least, should be available to gay people.

Do you believe they do not have a right to commit to each other through ceremony? If we called gays getting married something else would you be okay or are you just against same sex relationships all together? This I'm rather curious to know. :huh:

 

[Ricardo]

Marriage is not just about love, it is about commitment, and many other things. It is not just 2 people who love each other. There is a difference between brotherly love. It is also where 2 opposites of sex combine to make 1. If you can sho me where a gay marriage can continue life by creating children, I will show you a dwarf purple flying elephant that eats french fries. Gay marriage was not ment to be if it was one would be able to carry a child. Look at every animal on earth, how many gay animals do you see reproducing to continue the population, zip, nada, nill. Point made. :tank: Better yet how many animals do you see trying to woo the same sex, but yet you do see 2 males that fight over 1 female just to mate to REPRODUCE. There is a purpose of life dont get me started on abortion.

You act as if we're animals who only get married to reproduce. I personally disagree.

Two gay men may love each other just as much and be just as committed as two straight people.

What exactly does continuing the human race have to do with marriage? I fail to see the relevance in your argument.

IF gay marriage wasn't meant to be because it doesn't continue the human race , then there's a lot of other things you probably love that " aren't meant to be "

 

[kamakiri]

This thread was better when it was about beer.

I used to do wedding photography on the side when the economy was better...and I have to admit that one of the most beautiful ceremonies I attended was a gay wedding. Weddings often have so much tension between the couple or their families that the day often just gets 'ugly'. There's a reason why wedding professionals coined the term 'bridezilla'.

And I have five nephews...two were conceived via IVF...and you CAN'T make me believe that they weren't 'meant to be'. Fabu (say fah-boo), if you think otherwise. :lol:

 

[patrickfraser]

I'd rather have a child raised by a gay couple than the trash that spits them out annually and UNWED for a raise from their favorite uncle.

 

[PhilinYuma]

A couple of observations.

First, I notice that many of the opinions above appeal to some kind of universal law without naming it.

Nobody mentions God although many arguments are based on Christian doctirne.

The appeal to tradition is selective.

"Gender" is .used where "sex" is traditional and appropriate.Is there something against the word "sex"? And yes, I know about the argument citing parental controls. Perhaps the filters should be changed rather than the word. "Sex' traditionally -- tradition advocates -- refers to male and female, gender to the grammatical forms masculine, feminine and neuter. Why confuse them?

If we look on heterosexual marriage as a tradition that dates back to Adam (whoever he was) we might want to look at the tradition that allowed Solomon to be polygamous, the tradition of slavery, the tradition of animal sacrifice, the ban on divorce, or the more recent European traditions of monarchy, feudalism, marriage of girls at twelve or younger or the disenfranchisement of women.

The biggest question, though, hinted at, but unaddressed, is whether our moral or ethical opinions should be enforced on those who don't believe in them, by law. A tradition- bound society, obviously, cannot evolve.

And let's not forget the Urrrgh factor. No one, of course, who opposes homosexual (or in New Speak, "same sex", probably soon to become "same gender") marriage says that they find the idea of "queers doing it" together, disgusting, no one says that "killing a baby" ( can anyone remember when they were called "fetuses"?) is shockingly abhorrent. But remarriage, there's nothing viscerally repulsive about that. A couple simply vows to their god that they will stay together for ever, breaks the vow and makes a new one. God is busy; he's probably forgotten the old vow already. Besides, isn't he all forgiving?

I hope that some of the debaters on this seriously hijacked and ancient thread will address some of these issues, but I am not holding my breath.

 

[kamakiri]

I'd rather have a child raised by a gay couple than the trash that spits them out annually and UNWED for a raise from their favorite uncle.

Funny, I know of an actual example of this...and I have to agree. The gay couple has provided a loving and stable environment, when the unwed bioparents, uh, just couldn't.

 

[kamakiri]

...but I am not holding my breath.

:lol: Phil, I wouldn't want you to!

I'm fiscally conservative...and I hate that being a Republican means being associated with the right-wing nutjobs.

 

[patrickfraser]

It's funny that "Christianity" will be the ultimate destructor of this world. I look at it this way. God is a part of all of us. The spirit, or energy, that gives us life. God WILL destroy this world using his favorite children's hands. "lambs to the slaughter"??? At least they sound happy when singing their "praises. "

I didn't know their was so much HATE in religion!

WWBD (What would Buddha do?) I think he would just leave the blind followers to their madness and follow his own bliss.

 

[massaman]

I am a christian and well wont get into any arguements but abortion is murder as its the taking of the life that god has created even before it was a single cell and what not and my only other statement is god made adam and eve and not adam and steve!

I have spoken!



Well I am going to speak again but this is all that will be said so I dont get tongue lashed to the slave stick!

these two passages explain the theory that life begins with conception.

The first is Psalm 139:13-15: "For thou didst form my inward parts, thou didst knit me together in my mother's womb... My frame was not hidden from thee when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth."

The second is Jeremiah 1:5, "Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb, I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations." This verse simply refers to the concept of God's foreknowledge, and his divine plan for certain individuals, in this case, the prophet Jeremiah.

 

[patrickfraser]

I read a book where if you get bit by a vampire you turn into one. Is that true, too?

 

[massaman]

vampires made up characters!

 

[Ricardo]

I am a christian and well wont get into any arguements but abortion is murder as its the taking of the life that god has created even before it was a single cell and what not and my only other statement is god made adam and eve and not adam and steve!

I have spoken!



Well I am going to speak again but this is all that will be said so I dont get tongue lashed to the slave stick!

these two passages explain the theory that life begins with conception.

The first is Psalm 139:13-15: "For thou didst form my inward parts, thou didst knit me together in my mother's womb... My frame was not hidden from thee when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth."

The second is Jeremiah 1:5, "Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb, I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations." This verse simply refers to the concept of God's foreknowledge, and his divine plan for certain individuals, in this case, the prophet Jeremiah.

This is only relevant if the bible is correct.

Seeing as the bible is full of flawed arcaic beliefs I have no reason to believe in it or the characters it describes.

Just another book among millions. Contrary to others , I find the older the book the more cautious we must be. Evil was apparent in the old days. The values were twisted but okay for the time. Not okay for this time though.

 

[patrickfraser]

vampires made up characters!

Well there was a cast of 1000's of characters in the movie titled "the Greatest STORY Ever Told". I hear they made it as close to "THE BOOK" as possible.

 

[PhilinYuma]

I read a book where if you get bit by a vampire you turn into one. Is that true, too?

Of course it's true! Just tell me of one person who was bitten by a vampire and didn't turn into one! In modern times, Buffy Sainte Marie (cf) has revealed how she had sex (sorry, gender) with a vampire and became one herself. Why would she lie about something like that? As a vampire, she holds her childhood crucifix and says "you are farther from me now than the two ends of eternity". Fine song, that!

Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBYq5Hieh_A

 

[massaman]

be weary of the vampire obsession

vampire obsession