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HiM. religiosa religiosa is the one living in germany. And its germanys only native mantid, its very very very rare (never seen one here) and only living in very few areas with special climate. Thats why its protected by law.

This is the species which needs a diapause as long as its from europe. But religiosa religiosa is native in more or less all parts of the world, that means:

The subspecies religiosa religiosa is diapausing in europe and north america, while its not diapausing in asia and africa. THE SAME SUBSPECIES!!!

No, I cannot distinguish the subspecies.

There is no "original", all are subspecies :)
Tier,

How can Mantis religiosa religiosa require a diapause in Europe and North America but not require one in Asia and Africa? It's not like the diapause difference is something minor. Wouldn't that not so small difference indicate a different subspecies?

Scott

 
HiI think its about two years ago now when I posted my opinion about this topic here in the forum. i wrote something like its impossible for south african religiosas to diapause.

Another point is that I dont like to give any information about this species because here in germany and in almost entire europe its forbidden by law to keep or breed this species...

Whatever, I know for most of you guyes its not forbidden at least the tribe is not from europe.

However, there is 11 subspecies of this species,

religiosa beybienkoi (asia)

relogiosa caucasica (guess from where)

r eichleri (africa)

r inornata (asia)

r langoalata (asia)

r latinota (asia)

r macedonica (guess from where)

r polonica (guess from where)

r siedleckii (asia, living in the real east asia, maybe this is the species this thread deals with)

r sinica (asia)

and of course religiosa religiosa, a cosmopolitan species. This species lives in areas with cold winters as well as in areas without cold winters :)

(reference: Ehrmann 2002)

regards, tier

By the way, the ooth will tolerate temperatures from 100°C until -40°C as far as I remember :)
I'll visit the "National Museum of Natural Science" in Taichung in a few days, I'll ask some entomologist there, maybe I can find out which subspecies is here.

 
kamakiri,I said that if Dr. Yager says there are Mantis religiosa in parts of the world that don't need a diapause, I would tend to believe him. And I still do!
So you admit part of a short quote is an error but that's not the part you believe? (or it is?) :D You said something about grasping at staws...

The abliltiy to diapause or not diapause isn't going to make a new subspecies. A Chinese mantis that hatches out after 35 days in captivity doesn't suddently become a new subspecies. There are numerous insects that can diapause or not depending on stimuli.

As far as I understand Tier is saying there are no seasonal periods for the M. religiosa in tropical Africa so I'm guessing he has evidence they go through multiple generations each year. Just because it's not a different subspecies doesn't mean the specific population reacts the same (maybe these would be much easier to hatch out in captivity).

 
The abliltiy to diapause or not diapause isn't going to make a new subspecies. A Chinese mantis that hatches out after 35 days in captivity doesn't suddently become a new subspecies. There are numerous insects that can diapause or not depending on stimuli.As far as I understand Tier is saying there are no seasonal periods for the M. religiosa in tropical Africa so I'm guessing he has evidence they go through multiple generations each year. Just because it's not a different subspecies doesn't mean the specific population reacts the same (maybe these would be much easier to hatch out in captivity).
As I said before, I tend to believe what Dr. Yager says is accurate. Here is his text again:

"Because mantises are primarily tropical in distribution, the issue of diapause doesn't come up often. Even M. religiosa, which needs diapause over some of its range, does not in others (southern Europe, Africa)."

I take the implication that there are Mantis religiosa in tropical regions as fact and have no reason to doubt what he says about diapause. It's possible he is in error about diapause and southern Europe, but I have no data to prove he is wrong. Do you??

Now, the point you are trying to make using Tenodera sinensis is completely off base. Tenodera sinensis is a species that supports, but does not require, a diapause. Mantis religiosa does require a diapause in colder climatic regions. You can take a freshly laid T. sinensis egg case from southern New England and hatch it at home without it going through a diapause. You can't take a freshly laid M. religiosa from central Europe and hatch it at home if diapause has not been broken. You do understand that ENORMOUS difference, right?

Scott

 
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Hi,

I just joined this forum yesterday and own just one pair of locally caught Stagmomantis labiata, so forgive me for butting into this interesting discussion.

When I read the first entry in this thread yesterday, I thought, "Oh that happens to insects of the same species in different climates all the time." The replies from experienced members of this forum gave me pause, because I would imagine that my own species varies between diapausal and non diapausal eggs within the few hundred miles between Yuma, in the sothwest corner of the state and the Huachaca Mountains in the far southeast and a location of record for S. limbata. Even in the foothiolls of these mountains, the average winter low is 35F, aproximately the temperature of refrigerators that are used to induce diapause in captive ootheca. In Yuma, the official winter low is around 45F for a period of a few weeks in December, but it has been closer to 50F for the past decade, surely too high a temp. to induce diapause, particularly since other insects thrive throughout the winter.

I checked the internet for recent entomological papers on the subject, and found an interesting paper summary by Dennis Fielding of the University of Alaska, Fairbanks, which compares diaphase strategies of the migratory grasshopper, Melanophus sanguinpes in Alaska and Ohio: "The population from Idaho also diapaused at a late stage of development, but were able to skip diapause if chilled before entering diapause." I think that this suggests that among the orthoptera, at least (and I am old enough to still include the Mantidae in this Order), different populations of the same species living under different climatic condition can adopt different diapause strategies.

I don't know thether this helps, but at least I got my feet wet!

 
PhilinYuma,

It sounds like the grasshopper species discussed supports diapause at a different stage of development than mantid species that inhabit temperate zones. Egg diapause and nymphal diapause can occur for different reasons.

Also, there is only one mantid species that I am aware of in the U.S. that requires a diapause (I would not be surprised if there are others). The other species support a diapause but eggs will hatch without one. That one species that requires a diapause happens to be Mantis Religiosa which is the species this thread is all about.

Scott

 
I read the abstract of the "Optimal diapause strategies of a grasshopper, Melanoplus sanguinipes" article mentioned by PhilinYuma and gleaned a little more information. The "late stage of development" mentioned refers to different stages of embryonic development, not egg versus nymph as I supposed. I don't have the whole article to read but it appears that the articles says the Idaho population of M. sanguinipes can avoid diapause if prediapause embryos are subjected to a cold treatment (5°C) for 90 days. This cold treatment does not do the same thing for the Alaskan population of M. sanguinipes. The article abstract concludes that with the Alaskan M. sanguinipes, diapause was obligate (required) and with the Idaho M. sanguinipes, diapause was facultative (not required).

I would argue that these two populations are different subspecies. But, that is using the logic of someone that is not an entomologist or a taxonomist. Where is Christian when you need him??? I need to some education here.

Is it possible that the oothecae can be laid by Mantis religiosa religiosa with the diapause "switch" in all embryo turned on or off depending on the climatic region the mantid is in? In other words, if we took several M. r. religiosa nymphs hatched in Ghana and raised them outside in central Europe, would the oothecae they laid require a diapause and hatch in the spring?

Scott

 
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Also, there is only one mantid species that I am aware of in the U.S. that requires a diapause (I would not be surprised if there are others). The other species support a diapause but eggs will hatch without one. That one species that requires a diapause happens to be Mantis Religiosa which is the species this thread is all about.Scott
Just to let you know it is possible to hatch "temperate" M. religiosa without a diapause, I've done it on at least 2 occasions, although nymphs are somewhat weaker, it is still possible to raise them to adulthood.

 
Just to let you know it is possible to hatch "temperate" M. religiosa without a diapause, I've done it on at least 2 occasions, although nymphs are somewhat weaker, it is still possible to raise them to adulthood.
Cosmic,

Where were these Mantis religiosa collected?

Scott

 
Fisherman_Brazil:

This thread is now so long that I had to go back to your original question, that no one has answered (lots of fun along the way, though), so here is the best answer that I can give you. Bear in mind that, like Salomonis, I have no academic credentials in entomology, population (or any other kind of) genetics or taxonomy, so correction by any more qualified person will be instructive. I can collate material though, and I am familar with the ways of academic establishments.

You say that your purported M religiosa does not undergo diapause, so could it be a different species? The answer is a decisive "yes" and "no".

Of course, you could have misidentified your specimens (that would be the "yes"), but assuming that you have not, and there is certainly a viable wild population (c.f. the British Mantis Study Group checklist for Taiwan), then there is no reason not to suppose that Taiwan supports a subspecies of M. religiosa marked by the ability to hatch without undergoing diapause. There is no need to even look at specimens of this drastically allopatric population in order to call it a subspecies. Decades ago, Sewall Wright, "the father of population genetics", defined a subspecies as a "geographic race" without recourse to specific morphological differences ( and no, darn it, I no longer have the books. Try Evaluation of the Genetics of Population and go to the chapter on "Species and Subspecies" Vol IV? Does anyone know?).

The question that that raised, was how can one subspecies differ so markedly from all the rest? I suggested that such a subspecies variation seems to occur in the Alaskan and Ohioan [sic?] populations of Melanoplus sanguinpes, and in his reply, I think that Salomonis hit the mark when he suggested that the diapause-initiating gene can be turned off or on according to the climate. My only objection to this was that it would suggest that M. religiosa that grew up in the wild in the Frozen North of the U.S. (or at least the F2 generation) and raised indoor at room temperature should hatch without diapause, but Cosmic's account of this species hatching in just this manner, though with rather feeble nymphs, tends to dispel that objection and suggests how the Taiwan subspecies became established. Based on Cosmic's observation, it seems at least plausible that when this insect was imported, presumably in the same way that it eneterd the U.S., on board ship, the first generation of ootheca survived the winter without diapause, and the few weeklings that survived were able to develop a populattion that did not need diaphase. There is nothing mysterious here. They were just lucky.

How about those on again, off again genes, though? Well, they exist in Bombyx mori, for sure. I found (another!) abstract, this time at "sciencdirect.com" which describes how "supression of DH-PBAN expression by silencing of the BmPitx successfully induced non-diapausid eggs from a diapause egg producer." Good luck with that! I lost a lot of it even while clutching my dog-eared college level, six year-old genetics text, but it demonstrates that the "diapause gene" can be turned off, and if that happens in silk moths then at least we have a mechanism for how it could happen in M. religiosa.

So where from here? One possibility is to keep a couple of your ooths in the refrigerater and see what happens in the Spring. Be aware, though, of a phenomenon called "genetic erosion". I don't know how long this species has been living in Taiwan, but their isolation and relatively small number of imports is bound to reduce their gene pool, and the diapause inducing gene might no longer function. It migt be more productive to import some ooths from the U.S. or Europe, and see how many, if any, survive a diapause free winter. A better bet (though I'm not saying don't expeiment!) might be to contact the entomology department at you university. In my experience, trying to find the right professor on the phone during his office hours is frequently a frustrating experience. Try using the university's website and locate an apropriate guy or send an enthusiastic and grovelling (both are necessary) Email to [email protected]<[email protected]> and hope for the best. If your university library has an open-door policy, you might try using the stacks with a pocketful of yuan in your pocket and photocopy anything of interest. If there has been a scientific study of this phenomenon, the experimental protoculs will be much more elegant and bullet proof than anything that we could come up with. Finally, I have a vague memory of an "Insect Museum", I think in Taapei. If it is still open, you might try finding a curator there. In my experience, they tend to be more immediately available than professors, and maybe you will get to see some "Good Stuff.

That's it. Good luck, and I am sure that most of the readers of this thread would be interested to hear what you discover.

And now back to the thread.....

 
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Fisherman_Brazil:This thread is now so long that I had to go back to your original question, that no one has answered (lots of fun along the way, though), so here is the best answer that I can give you. Bear in mind that, like Salomonis, I have no academic credentials in entomology, population (or any other kind of) genetics or taxonomy, so correction by any more qualified person will be instructive. I can collate material though, and I am familar with the ways of academic establishments.

You say that your purported M religiosa does not undergo diapause, so could it be a different species? The answer is a decisive "yes" and "no".

Of course, you could have misidentified your specimens (that would be the "yes"), but assuming that you have not, and there is certainly a viable wild population (c.f. the British Mantis Study Group checklist for Taiwan), then there is no reason not to suppose that Taiwan supports a subspecies of M. religiosa marked by the ability to hatch without undergoing diapause. There is no need to even look at specimens of this drastically allopatric population in order to call it a subspecies. Decades ago, Sewall Wright, "the father of population genetics", defined a subspecies as a "geographic race" without recourse to specific morphological differences ( and no, darn it, I no longer have the books. Try Evaluation of the Genetics of Population and go to the chapter on "Species and Subspecies" Vol IV? Does anyone know?).

The question that that raised, was how can one subspecies differ so markedly from all the rest? I suggested that such a subspecies variation seems to occur in the Alaskan and Ohioan [sic?] populations of Melanoplus sanguinpes, and in his reply, I think that Salomonis hit the mark when he suggested that the diapause-initiating gene can be turned off or on according to the climate. My only objection to this was that it would suggest that M. religiosa that grew up in the wild in the Frozen North of the U.S. (or at least the F2 generation) and raised indoor at room temperature should hatch without diapause, but Cosmic's account of this species hatching in just this manner, though with rather feeble nymphs, tends to dispel that objection and suggests how the Taiwan subspecies became established. Based on Cosmic's observation, it seems at least plausible that when this insect was imported, presumably in the same way that it eneterd the U.S., on board ship, the first generation of ootheca survived the winter without diapause, and the few weeklings that survived were able to develop a populattion that did not need diaphase. There is nothing mysterious here. They were just lucky.

How about those on again, off again genes, though? Well, they exist in Bombyx mori, for sure. I found (another!) abstract, this time at "sciencdirect.com" which describes how "supression of DH-PBAN expression by silencing of the BmPitx successfully induced non-diapausid eggs from a diapause egg producer." Good luck with that! I lost a lot of it even while clutching my dog-eared college level, six year-old genetics text, but it demonstrates that the "diapause gene" can be turned off, and if that happens in silk moths then at least we have a mechanism for how it could happen in M. religiosa.

So where from here? One possibility is to keep a couple of your ooths in the refrigerater and see what happens in the Spring. Be aware, though, of a phenomenon called "genetic erosion". I don't know how long this species has been living in Taiwan, but their isolation and relatively small number of imports is bound to reduce their gene pool, and the diapause inducing gene might no longer function. It migt be more productive to import some ooths from the U.S. or Europe, and see how many, if any, survive a diapause free winter. A better bet (though I'm not saying don't expeiment!) might be to contact the entomology department at you university. In my experience, trying to find the right professor on the phone during his office hours is frequently a frustrating experience. Try using the university's website and locate an apropriate guy or send an enthusiastic and grovelling (both are necessary) Email to [email protected]<[email protected]> and hope for the best. If your university library has an open-door policy, you might try using the stacks with a pocketful of yuan in your pocket and photocopy anything of interest. If there has been a scientific study of this phenomenon, the experimental protoculs will be much more elegant and bullet proof than anything that we could come up with. Finally, I have a vague memory of an "Insect Museum", I think in Taapei. If it is still open, you might try finding a curator there. In my experience, they tend to be more immediately available than professors, and maybe you will get to see some "Good Stuff.

That's it. Good luck, and I am sure that most of the readers of this thread would be interested to hear what you discover.

And now back to the thread.....
PhilinYuma:

Your seggestion sounds interesting. I am Fisherman_Brazil's friend, a college student in the department of Entomology, I think that I can do some experiment with him, hope I can soon report the result here.

 
Hi.

I was away and didn't read the whole topic. Sorry for this. To come back to the original question(s):

1. Mantis religiosa has several subspecies distribited over the Old World. The information in Ehrmann (2002) is outdated:

At moment I only accept the following subspecies:

M. r. religiosa: Europe to N Africa and C Asia (the N-American specimens also belong to this subspecies)

M. r. polonica: Poland to Belarus and parts of Russia

M. r. eichleri: tropical Africa

M. r. griveaudi: Madagascar

M. r. beybienkoi: C Asia & Siberia to The Far East

M. r. sinica: E-Asia

M. r. inornata: Iran to India

M. r. siedleckii: SE Asia to Timor and Taiwan

The infos are from a book on this species I am co-authoring and which is still in preparation.

Thus, Taiwan obviously (after doing some research I cannot reject this fact originally proposed by Bazyluk 1960) bears M. r. siedleckii (despite of M. r. sinica occurring on mainland China), which is a tropical subspecies and, together with M. r. eichleri, M. r. inornata and M. r. griveaudi don't require a diapause.

2. However, even specimens of temperate subspecies sometimes hatch successfully without undergoing a diapause, while others don't. There is still some genetically determined variability left in these populations. That's why this species is so successful: it can deal with many environments.

People are always puzzled by the fact that someone has experienced things which were contradictory to those experienced by others. This doesn't mean that one of them isn't right. Even if temperate religiosa require a diapause (3. which has to be induced first in order to become irreversible!!), there may be strains which can do without one. This is no contradiction at all, it's just variability (see 3.)

 
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Sorry for not answering you all gentlemen's response soon enough. The best for me to do, might be, having these nymphs grown soon enough and send them to some of you interested to identify or clarify in detailed.

By the way, eaglewarrior have been done a fine job!

 
Hi.I was away and didn't read the whole topic. Sorry for this. To come back to the original question(s):

1. Mantis religiosa has several subspecies distribited over the Old World. The information in Ehrmann (2002) is outdated:

At moment I only accept the following subspecies:

M. r. religiosa: Europe to N Africa and C Asia (the N-American specimens also belong to this subspecies)

M. r. polonica: Poland to Belarus and parts of Russia

M. r. eichleri: tropical Africa

M. r. griveaudi: Madagascar

M. r. beybienkoi: C Asia & Siberia to The Far East

M. r. sinica: E-Asia

M. r. inornata: Iran to India

M. r. siedleckii: SE Asia to Timor and Taiwan

The infos are from a book on this species I am co-authoring and which is still in preparation.

Thus, Taiwan obviously (after doing some research I cannot reject this fact originally proposed by Bazyluk 1960) bears M. r. siedleckii (despite of M. r. sinica occurring on mainland China), which is a tropical subspecies and, together with M. r. eichleri, M. r. inornata and M. r. griveaudi don't require a diapause.

2. However, even specimens of temperate subspecies sometimes hatch successfully without undergoing a diapause, while others don't. There is still some genetically determined variability left in these populations. That's why this species is so successful: it can deal with many environments.

People are always puzzled by the fact that someone has experienced things which were contradictory to those experienced by others. This doesn't mean that one of them isn't right. Even if temperate religiosa require a diapause (3. which has to be induced first in order to become irreversible!!), there may be strains which can do without one. This is no contradiction at all, it's just variability (see 3.)
I was waiting for you to join the thread :D

 
Hello Christian,

When will your book be available? Will it be available in English? Sorry, my German is limited to armor related lingo. I can talk to panzer crews about the tanks, but can not talk about the weather :p

 
Unfortunately, it will still take a while. The task was greater than previously thought, even though the book focuses on one species only (M. religiosa). However, while researching all the stuff, you realize that many facts were interpreted wrongly in the past or had been just incomplete. So the work is more than you had anticipated before.

It will be in German, but we already think of a subsequent translation into English.

 
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... Has any DNA analysis been done on the different sub-species?
Hi guys,

Yes, there is a DNA project on different populations/subspecies of Mantis religiosa. First studies are done on several populations in Europe and single populations from West Africa, India and Vietnam. Further samples stored in Ethanol in the fridge are already available and wait to be sequenced. All samples especially from Asia and Africa are welcome. Please contact me if you can contribute more samples and would like to help.

Unfortunately it will take some time until the results are available and published.

Cheers,

Brancsikia

 

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