I don't think that is how they get infected with them. If the fly has no access to the mantids then I can't see how they could get them.
Internal parasites
- Thread starter Rick
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ismart
Well-known member
I unfortuneatly don't have a photo of a narrow-winged mantis. I did not have a camera at the time that i had them, but i do have one now.
I find that my parasites are clearly a bit different from rick's and joossa's. I have only come across male narrow-winged nymphs with the parasite in them. Never a female narrow-winged, common chinese male or female, that inhabit the same feild as the infected narrow-winged males. All together over the years i have collected 8 of these male narrow-winged nymphs with the parasite. I have only tried hatching 3 of the pupea, but none have ever hatched for me. I have also noticed there was only one parasite per mantis nymph. Unlike rick's litter of maggots. I also noticed that after the maggot would emerge there would be a small slit on the side of the abdomin, not a big nasty hole in the abdomin like rick's and joossa's. Of course these are just observations i have had.Ntsees
Well-known member
Yes, I understand the concepts behind parasitism. Although it is possible to have more than one parasite per host, I find that because there were so many parasites in Rick's mantid that I was concerned the parasites might not have fed enough to pupate. Usually it's the one parasite per host as Ismart says. And it's not that we want them to be screwed over. We want them to pupate so we'll know what the adults looks like so we can watch out for them.Ntsees: the idea behind parasitism is for the parasite to leech off of the host until it is ready to enter the next phase of its life. It doesn't make sense for it to kill the host prematurely with no definite food source in sight. The maggots shown above will probably pupate soon. If they don't, god bless 'em, they screwed themselves over
Ntsees
Well-known member
My ideas and reasonings on how the mantid may have gotten the parasites: there may be more, but I can only think of 3 methods on how the mantid could become parasitized:
(1) The mantid fed on a prey that had the parasites and parasites managed to latched on to the mantid before it could be consumed (as what someone mentioned).
(2) The parasites hatched out from eggs laid on plants and waited for a host to come by so they can latch onto them - and in this case a mantid came by (it's like how ticks wait on a bush until you or a dog come by so they can get a blood meal).
(3) The parent parasite (fly, wasp, etc.) would have to actively search out for a host (like how Tarantula hawks search out tarantulas to lay their eggs). In order for that to happen, the parent parasite would need claws to hold onto it's host before it can lay it's egg(s). (probably this type of parasitism might not involve a fly since I've never seen a fly that can grab ahold of something - excluding the robber flies). And don't forget, a mantid is usually always on the lookout for a meal and I don't think a fly would make the cut to have the opportunity to sit on a mantid to lay it's eggs. Considering how alert and agile mantids are in the wild, more or less, I don't think a mantid will let anything land on it unless it was "forced" to (with gripping claws).
Could be any or none of the three above. Just giving some possibilities. Now, we wait and see what those parasites turn out to be.
(1) The mantid fed on a prey that had the parasites and parasites managed to latched on to the mantid before it could be consumed (as what someone mentioned).
(2) The parasites hatched out from eggs laid on plants and waited for a host to come by so they can latch onto them - and in this case a mantid came by (it's like how ticks wait on a bush until you or a dog come by so they can get a blood meal).
(3) The parent parasite (fly, wasp, etc.) would have to actively search out for a host (like how Tarantula hawks search out tarantulas to lay their eggs). In order for that to happen, the parent parasite would need claws to hold onto it's host before it can lay it's egg(s). (probably this type of parasitism might not involve a fly since I've never seen a fly that can grab ahold of something - excluding the robber flies). And don't forget, a mantid is usually always on the lookout for a meal and I don't think a fly would make the cut to have the opportunity to sit on a mantid to lay it's eggs. Considering how alert and agile mantids are in the wild, more or less, I don't think a mantid will let anything land on it unless it was "forced" to (with gripping claws).
Could be any or none of the three above. Just giving some possibilities. Now, we wait and see what those parasites turn out to be.
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ismart
Well-known member
These are the methods that i have found online that tachinid flies use to infect there hosts.
1. Some species stick eggs directly on the host.
2. Some species deposit eggs on foliage of host food plants to be ingested by the host as it feeds.
3. Some species lay their eggs on their hosts witch hatch into larvae, and enter the host through a soft part of the hosts skin.
4. Females of some other species that attack bugs and adult beetles have piercing ovipositors that insert their eggs into the body of their hosts.
5. Some species, instead of laying eggs, they lay live larvae and apply them onto the host using either of the above methods.
1. Some species stick eggs directly on the host.
2. Some species deposit eggs on foliage of host food plants to be ingested by the host as it feeds.
3. Some species lay their eggs on their hosts witch hatch into larvae, and enter the host through a soft part of the hosts skin.
4. Females of some other species that attack bugs and adult beetles have piercing ovipositors that insert their eggs into the body of their hosts.
5. Some species, instead of laying eggs, they lay live larvae and apply them onto the host using either of the above methods.
cloud jaguar
Well-known member
Is there any way WE could get infected with those parasites? Those horeshair worms are particularly disturbing - at my kids school they found one in the sandbox and freaked out because they thought it might crawl up a kid's butt.
Those horeshair worms are particularly disturbing - at my kids school they found one in the sandbox and freaked out because they thought it might crawl up a kid's butt.kamakiri
Well-known member
:huh: If you read the first page, you would see that Ntsees understands what you are condescendingly explaining above.Ntsees: the idea behind parasitism is for the parasite to leech off of the host until it is ready to enter the next phase of its life. It doesn't make sense for it to kill the host prematurely with no definite food source in sight. The maggots shown above will probably pupate soon. If they don't, god bless 'em, they screwed themselves over
ismart
Well-known member
Just tell them next time there playing in the sandbox to clench there butt cheeks together so those darn sneaky butt worms don't get them!Is there any way WE could get infected with those parasites?
h34r: :lol:
ismart
Well-known member
planetq
Well-known member
Rick- I have read that they are actually very common in mantises, especially in Asia, and the mantises get infected by eating the already infected prey.
Images from
http://blog.naver.com/g5hdm?Redirect=Log&a...No=140089767452
and http://news.naver.com/main/read.nhn?mode=L...;aid=0000101671
(They are in Korean)
PhilinYuma
Well-known member
This is a really interesting topic, with lots of different ideas. Here are a few thoughts based on my very limited knowledge of insect parasitism.
Mantids are parasitized by a variety of tiny wasps and tachinid flies.
Parasites can get "on board" a mantis. At least one wasp regularly does this, usually mounting a female, living off her tissue as a non-fatal ectoparasite and scooting down the tip of the abdomen to lay her eggs in the mantis's ooth before the protein froth hardens. The larval wasps are parasitoids that each eat one egg.
Usually, if a beetle, or a tarantula is paralyzed by a parasitoid, it remains paralyzed until it is consumed. Eggs are usually laid on rather than in the victim.
Parasites that lay their eggs on the surface of their prey can parasitize a small number of related insects. Those that lay their eggs inside the prey often specialize in one species. The host's immune system will try to engulf or destroy the eggs, and the parasite needs to suppress these defenses with a variety of species-specific viruses and egg coatings. The parasitic larva can also control the host's hormones so that the host and parasite pupate at the same time. For this reason, and for the reason that Superfreak pointed out yesterday, the transfer of a parasite from one host to another by being eaten is as close to impossible as anything in nature can be. Of course, I am not talking here about parasites like the mosquito that use multiple hosts in their life cycle.
Also, for obvious reasons, one host insect can only support a biomass substantially smaller than itself until close to the end of its life. For this reason the number of parasites per host is very limited. It is believed that when a parasite injects an egg into a host, she leaves a pheromone marker so that no other parasite or close relative will reparasitize it. This is one of the main reasons why I think that Rick's mantis and someone else's dead grasshopper were not parasitized, even though both are subject to parasitism.
I suspect that when you find a dead insect or one that contains dead or necrotic tissue that is full of maggots, the maggots, like house and phorid fly larvae, are simply eating the dead flesh and did not get there before a fly laid its eggs in the dead tissue. So I'm going to bet hat the maggots turn out to belong to some small, non parasitic fly.
Arkanis: we don't need insect parasites, we already have a huge number of nematodes, trematodes and cystodes, that just love human insides and can't wait to leap on us!
Mantids are parasitized by a variety of tiny wasps and tachinid flies.
Parasites can get "on board" a mantis. At least one wasp regularly does this, usually mounting a female, living off her tissue as a non-fatal ectoparasite and scooting down the tip of the abdomen to lay her eggs in the mantis's ooth before the protein froth hardens. The larval wasps are parasitoids that each eat one egg.
Usually, if a beetle, or a tarantula is paralyzed by a parasitoid, it remains paralyzed until it is consumed. Eggs are usually laid on rather than in the victim.
Parasites that lay their eggs on the surface of their prey can parasitize a small number of related insects. Those that lay their eggs inside the prey often specialize in one species. The host's immune system will try to engulf or destroy the eggs, and the parasite needs to suppress these defenses with a variety of species-specific viruses and egg coatings. The parasitic larva can also control the host's hormones so that the host and parasite pupate at the same time. For this reason, and for the reason that Superfreak pointed out yesterday, the transfer of a parasite from one host to another by being eaten is as close to impossible as anything in nature can be. Of course, I am not talking here about parasites like the mosquito that use multiple hosts in their life cycle.
Also, for obvious reasons, one host insect can only support a biomass substantially smaller than itself until close to the end of its life. For this reason the number of parasites per host is very limited. It is believed that when a parasite injects an egg into a host, she leaves a pheromone marker so that no other parasite or close relative will reparasitize it. This is one of the main reasons why I think that Rick's mantis and someone else's dead grasshopper were not parasitized, even though both are subject to parasitism.
I suspect that when you find a dead insect or one that contains dead or necrotic tissue that is full of maggots, the maggots, like house and phorid fly larvae, are simply eating the dead flesh and did not get there before a fly laid its eggs in the dead tissue. So I'm going to bet hat the maggots turn out to belong to some small, non parasitic fly.
Arkanis: we don't need insect parasites, we already have a huge number of nematodes, trematodes and cystodes, that just love human insides and can't wait to leap on us!
here is something interesting where a parasite turns its victim into a mindless zombie until it hatches
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/...-fire-ant-host/
http://discovermagazine.com/photos/04-zomb...at-control-them
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/...-fire-ant-host/
http://discovermagazine.com/photos/04-zomb...at-control-them
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jameslongo
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I'm not saying that your understanding of parasitism is lacking, Ntsees. In fact, from what I gather your posts, you have a good understanding in entomology. I've got my money on tachinid flies & they lay more than one egg per host. I have kept Anthelid Moth caterpillars (roughly the size of the abdomen of the mantid in question) & have been surprised to find each of them had been parasitised by at least 4 maggots, which metamorphed into these buggers.
I wouldn't worry about them being 'screwed over.' I believe they will pupate. Hopefully all will reach adulthood.
Sounds like you've been parasitised there, Grant :lol: Sit on any tachinid flies lately?
kamakiri
Well-known member
Very contradictory to your previous tone. But it's not worth a warn point to tell you what I really think.
Ntsees
Well-known member
In regards to the one egg per host, that's what I normally think of when I hear "parasite and host" but now that I come to think about it, there are hosts that may have many parasites (seeing a tobacco hornworm with those white coccoons on it's back). And yes, although I'm not an expert in parasitology, I'm sure the tachinid flies do lay more than one egg on a host. I guess when I posted those comments, I wasn't thinking broadly enough (I gotta get some sleep) lol.
And hopefully they will hatch since Rick mentioned that they were hardening up.
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You guys watch " monsters inside me"? I am clenching my butt together right now!!!
I usually think of this parasite whenever talk of them comes up, I have seen this in my garden and always freaks me out, anyone else seen this? This parasite lays it inside the hornworn.
http://elmostreport.blogspot.com/2008/09/t...conid-wasp.html
http://elmostreport.blogspot.com/2008/09/t...conid-wasp.html
